Shower sump pump

[Loren Beach]

We have been dealing with this for over two decades here. The normal constraints of supply/demand have been slowly shunted aside by the larger issue of disappearing boatyards. Every time an older yard location gets bought up to create a new condo or other business/industrial use, we recreational boaters lose another choice. Sometimes a yard will cite "insurance" for their policies, but it's a red herring for them having so many wealthy boaters to pick from that the fading constituency of middle class boaters gets squeezed out.
Generally speaking, the guys with the big checkbooks also own the larger boats.

We smaller boat owners have less competition now, for our business. Given the increasing value of waterside land and the constant acquiescence of local governments to the clout of developers, the longer term survival of this ancient industry does not look too good to me. (At least not for a slowly-fading middle class.)

Locally, we nowadays have access to a reasonable-cost yard only because it is a two hours trip from my moorage. The nearby pair of metro area yards are catering to commercial and wealthy boat owners nowadays, more and more.

It's sad.

AND----- now we need a new thread about our (well intentioned) whining about the cost of boat yards. We are very far afield from the thread title. This makes searching the site difficult too.
If there is no further relative info I shall next close the thread. And yes I am at fault, too!

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Well, I guess I couldn't/wouldn't own a boat in the northeast as the yards up there seem to have conspired against their own paying customers. I don't like paying people to do things I can do easily and I also couldn't afford the $100+ an hour they would charge to do them. They may sight liability and environmental concerns but it sure smells like pure greed. I'm sure hoping this isn't a sign of things to come everywhere.....

It hasn't gotten to that point in the Rhode Island area, yet. We were at a large Safe Harbor yard last off-season and were able to do anything we wanted and were equipped for. They make an effort to have power available within 100' of every boat. A water faucet was nearby as well. There were environmental guidelines we had to follow like vac system for sanding, monitoring some chemicals used, etc.. We're at a smaller independent yard this year with similar allowances/restrictions. We have a power outlet 15' from our boat. Some yards, I hear, have the level of restriction Dave Hill describes. Others have rules like the yard crew has to do anything below the waterline and outside contractors have to register and sometimes pay a fee. It's a tough business to be in for sure, but if we were facing the restrictions described in Maine, it would put boat ownership out of our reach. Hopefully there will always be some yards open for us.
In some of our immediate experience, and that of friends, there can be a kind of shotgun wedding if being forced to use the yard crews. They don't always have qualified people doing the work. It's not universal, but I don't automatically assume that if a yard crew (or marine 'professional') does a job that it will be done right. On the jobs we did have the yard quote, there was a 6-8 week backlog.
@dhill - Dave, we paid about $2,650 last year for winter storage, including haul and splash. Mast unstep and step was a separate fee. How does that compare to what you're charged? If the storage fee were dramatically lower, I could see a better case for mandating all work be done by the yard.

 

[Filkee]

It hasn't gotten to that point in the Rhode Island area, yet. We were at a large Safe Harbor yard last off-season and were able to do anything we wanted and were equipped for. They make an effort to have power available within 100' of every boat. A water faucet was nearby as well. There were environmental guidelines we had to follow like vac system for sanding, monitoring some chemicals used, etc.. We're at a smaller independent yard this year with similar allowances/restrictions. We have a power outlet 15' from our boat. Some yards, I hear, have the level of restriction Dave Hill describes. Others have rules like the yard crew has to do anything below the waterline and outside contractors have to register and sometimes pay a fee. It's a tough business to be in for sure, but if we were facing the restrictions described in Maine, it would put boat ownership out of our reach. Hopefully there will always be some yards open for us.
In some of our immediate experience, and that of friends, there can be a kind of shotgun wedding if being forced to use the yard crews. They don't always have qualified people doing the work. It's not universal, but I don't automatically assume that if a yard crew (or marine 'professional') does a job that it will be done right. On the jobs we did have the yard quote, there was a 6-8 week backlog.
@dhill - Dave, we paid about $2,650 last year for winter storage, including haul and splash. Mast unstep and step was a separate fee. How does that compare to what you're charged? If the storage fee were dramatically lower, I could see a better case for mandating all work be done by the yard.

Interesting. I’m at a Safe Harbor facility so maybe it’s a sign of things to come at the others. They are rapidly buying up the yards around the lake.

 

[Nick J]

Wow, I have a new appreciation for the Everett Marina's yard. They're not the super friendly, know you by name yard you hear about from other DIYers, but they're fair and their policies are clear. Other than billing questions and the quick exchange with the staff during the actual haul out, I haven't had any interaction with them. I'm with you Jeff, if I couldn't do some of the work myself, boat ownership would be out of reach.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Interesting. I’m at a Safe Harbor facility so maybe it’s a sign of things to come at the others. They are rapidly buying up the yards around the lake.

Yeah, who knows where it will end up. There are eleven Safe Harbor marinas in Rhode Island, according to their map. And it's a small state. Rumors of foreign money and future development plans abound. SH purchased yards seem to become far more bureaucratic, losing the small town feel. It's sort of like the Borg. In their defense, they typically pour a lot of money into upgrading facilities and promoting activities, from food truck nights to SH Race Week, and 'members' have reciprocal values at other SH yards when traveling.
This got me more curious about the company and I found these two articles interesting:

Sun Communities Acquires Safe Harbor Marinas for $2.11B - RVBusiness - Breaking RV Industry News

A Dallas company that operates 101 marinas nationwide is merging with a real estate investment trust in a cash and stock deal valued at $2.11 billion, according to a report in the Dallas Morning News. Safe Harbor Marinas announced the deal Tuesday (Sept. 29) with Sun Communities Inc., a publicly...

rvbusiness.com

Baxter Underwood, Safe Harbor Marinas: Turning the Parking-Lot Analogy Into a Hospitality Analogy - Megayacht News

Baxter Underwood: Space is a very important component to service. Lauderdale Marine Center’s 60 acres make it quite a large facility. The

megayachtnews.com

It's probably a great model for many people. Friends who are 'members' and take their boats south for the winter love the reciprocity. There's a predictability, like franchise restaurants. In the end, I tend to be an advocate for Subsidiarity. We're at a small yard for our summer mooring and another for winter storage this year.

Sorry Dave, I wandered a good deal afar of your sump pump.

 

[dhill]

I started a new thread here to continue the boat yard discussion.

DIY Boatyards a dying breed?

Hi all, I created this thread as a continuation of the digression in the original Sump Pump post, for which I am equally guilty... [see Post #16] Moderator note: Initial posts duplicated from another thread for continuity. Hi Dave, On our '86 E35-3 that sump pump is part of the cabin light...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Nick J]

Getting back to the shower pump configuration and wiring question, I'm not seeing the advantage of wiring it to the light switch. That makes sense for an exhaust fan in a galley or head, but there's too many times you just need light and have an empty bilge.

It may seem daunting to bring a new circuit from the battery, but there's actually quite a few options on the 35-3. I brought mine from a non switched fuse block on the house battery, under the port sette, to a bilge switch above the head sink. From there, I ran a three conductor cable down to the float switch and pump in the shower sump bilge. You could also go up to the headliner under the side deck (the original wiring run) or through the space behind the back rest of the sette. From the switch, there's a pretty clear path through the cabinet, then between the holding tank and bulkhead to the bilge.

For redundancy, I wired the main bilge pump to the start battery and the shower pump to the house battery. If one fills up due to a failed pump, it should flow over to the other through the wiring/plumbing conduit. This was the only way the shower bilge was draining until I replaced the pump.

I currently have a 2000gph centrifugal pump in the main bilge and a 500gph centrifugal pump in the shower. I'm thinking of replacing both with either vein or diaphragm pumps located in one of the port side settee lockers. I like the idea of not having to worry about air locks or wiring in the bilge (outside the float switch). It would also be nice to just pick up the intake hose and move it around the bilge to pick up the last few puddles of water.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

On our boat there is a separate switch for the sump pump. That switch is only powered when the cabin lights are on.

 

[Nick J]

That makes a little more sense, but it would still be good to eventually run a dedicated circuit. The original wiring in my boat had a shared return for the main DC run. It's a longshot, but this does end up under sizing the wire in the circuit and could be an issue if the motor in the pump locks up. I also requires the light to be left on if you are keeping the pump in auto mode to backup the main bilge pump. Although, coming down the dock to a boat with a light on is always more pleasant than the alternative.

 

[Shankara]

As an alternative to shower water drainage into a bilge which can create bilge odor, I’ve got a neat alternative which includes a hand pump that sends it over the side.

The aft cabin head was refitted as a sit down shower with an 18” footwell, pump as you go. Works great! (*from my other non-Ericson vessel)

 

[Christian Williams]

So--there's no head? What's your alternative for those, er, functions. ?

 

[Shankara]

So--there's no head? What's your alternative for those, er, functions. ?

Second head in the fore cabin w/ composting air head.

I’m not sure about the configuration of all Ericson or Olson models, although from watching some of your awesome videos (I’ve carefully studied them all, very much appreciated), it seems like some of the showers are in a separate stall, while some also may have 2 head compartments. In these circumstances a footwell refit method could possibly be incorporated.

 

[toddster]

Probably not relevant to existing Ericson installations, but... The (somewhat dubious) wiring philosophy that came to me with The New Boat, is few breakers on the main panel that lead to distribution blocks scattered around the boat. To which many things are attached, mostly without additional fusing or much switching. ("Tree Shaped" wiring diagram.) This is a viable and possibly simpler solution, as long as the wiring and fusing is up to snuff. Every single device doesn't have to be wired all the way back to the main panel. I did this on the E29 nav station - there wasn't much other choice! Also the cabin lights, fans, etc.

Re: Shower sumps. There is one breaker for "Head" which powers six (!) pumps and two tank-level sensors in two heads. (Two vacu-flush head pumps, two discharge pumps, two shower sump pumps.) I think there will be a slow campaign to simplify the system AND beef up the wiring/fusing situation. The shower sumps simply contain a perforated tube that leads to a self-priming pump under the sinks. They discharge through a sort of vent fitting into the sink. Thus no extra through-hull. They are manually operated via a switch inside the vanity cabinet. Though I like the idea of an automatic switch.

Coincidentally, I just cleaned the hair and muck out of the in-use shower sump this morning. Don't want all that stuff in the bilge for sure! There is also a strainer in-line with the pump under the sink. It's called that because you strain your back trying to contort yourself into a position to inspect or clean it. (The forward head is being converted to a miniature workshop, but its shower sump contains the mast step, so one has to remember to pump it after a rain.)

 

[southofvictor]

Been trying to troubleshoot shower sump pump on my boat, too. I have power to the switch (light is lit when switched on anyway) but no sump pump operation. Ours needs ”pressure water” to be switched on at breaker panel. Whale Gulper pump and Rule switch. Pump looks pretty new but I’d like to test it as I’ve run out of other ideas. Can anyone tell me a good way I can bench test a pump in the cockpit locker? Or do i have to pull it?

 

[debonAir]

I started a new thread here to continue the boat yard discussion.

DIY Boatyards a dying breed?

Hi all, I created this thread as a continuation of the digression in the original Sump Pump post, for which I am equally guilty... [see Post #16] Moderator note: Initial posts duplicated from another thread for continuity. Hi Dave, On our '86 E35-3 that sump pump is part of the cabin light...

ericsonyachts.org

Did you ever figure out where the yellow wires come from and go to?

I have a Jabsco "waterpuppy" (vane pump) installed in the engine compartment as the shower-sump pump. I had recently replaced it (2 seasons ago) but it has now stopped working. At the boat today I took out the impeller and the motor spins fine on both manual and float switch. With the impeller on and cover closed no dice. Suspecting a bad connection someplace I ran a temp 14 G wire between pump + and the battery and it worked great and I got to see a nice spark show. Using a long run of mixed 14 and 12 gauge (mostly 14) I connected pump + to the yellow supply wire on the fuse of the "on/off/auto" switch over the head and it also ran the pump fine. Holding the yellow supply to the original yellow wire that goes back to the pump got me no motor, and not even a spark, so I am thinking the return wire (also yellow, seems like same 10 or 12 G like the supply) has a bad spot somewhere, but I can't find how it routes. Seems to come from behind the DC panel where there is a yellow-wire loop with a butt connector on it, but there is only one yellow wire there, no connection to a breaker, and not to the battery switch either AFAICT.

My plan is to run 2 new 10G yellow wires to the head somehow, but i just want to figure out where the originals tie in to duplicate that perhaps.