Tiller pull to port

[dworkman]

I am looking to buy a 1983 Ericson 28+ which has a very strong pull on the tiller when motoring near top end. Is this a common problem? What can be done to lessen it? The boat has a slight list to starboard at the dock, is that a related problem or the result of full tanks on one side and not the other.
Dave

 

[Jewel]

E28+

Hi Dave,

We have a 1984 E28+. The pull you experience while motoring is because the engine is slightly offset from the centerline of the boat. The prop shaft is a couple of inches to the port from the center. Under sail you will never notice a thing. The starboard list is also an Ericson trait that many boats seem to have. On the 28+ I think it is attributed to having the fuel tank, batteries, water and holding tank all on the same side of the boat. I worried about this for a while and even ran a tape up the halyard to make sure the mast was centered and not contributing to the problem. I also considered moving the water tank but under sail this is not noticable and the boat sails fine. Actually the boat sails a lot better than fine! We really enjoy our boat and are very happy.


Dan and Julie
Jewel E28+
Bellingham

 

[dworkman]

Thanks for the feedback. The boat I'm looking at is in Anacortes not far from you. Can the motor be aligned so as to remedy most of the over steer or is it a design flaw? Do you know of someone in the area who could do it?
Dave

 

[Loren Beach]

Dave,
Pulling on the helm under power seems common a lot of boats built over the decades. The old Ranger 33, a superb sailing boat, has an evil helm reputation under power. The ubiquitous Catalina 30 might also, as a Catalina dealer I know used to advise folks to buy the wheel model to reduce (!) helm feel.

Design wise, it seems to get down to how close the prop is to the rudder, and of course whether the angle of the shaft is other than on-center. C&C used to sharply angle their shafts off to port, for instance --- word on the docks is that it not only made the shaft easy to remove but got rid of torque steer as well. (I never owned one so have no first hand info.)

And then, the smaller the boat the closer the (inboard engine) prop wash is going to have to be to the leading edge of that rudder.

If the boat is listing, this will affect steering, as you have conjectured. Our Ericson-built Olson has a port list (as do all the O-34's) and we trim it out level for cruising with an enlarged (and filled!) water tank under our starboard settee... that and always piling duffles and the bag-o-Zodiac on that side when under way.

Does your prospective purchase have a three-blade prop? Rumors are that they worsen the effect...
Again, I have never used one.

Note that correct allignment of the engine will reduce vibration, will have no effect on the thrust vector of the prop.

Keep us posted,

Loren in PDX

 

[rgoff]

My '73 E27 has always had a very strong "tiller pull" when motoring at anything above slow speed. Just make sure you have an autopilot if you plan on making any long trips. My arm never would survive the 35 nm motoring to Catalina steering by hand.

 

[Jewel]

28+

Hi Dave,

The boat is designed to have the engine slightly offset. Attempting to align the engine with the centerline of the boat would involve major modifications and glass work to move the shaft log. Having the shaft offset does allow the shaft to be removed without dropping the rudder but I don't know if this was the original intention... It could have been just to gain a little more room for the prop in the fairly confined space between the hull and the rudder.

We repowered a couple of years ago and went to a three blade prop, I haven't noticed an appreciable gain in the pull on the wheel. When we find ourselves motoring long distances a turn on the knurled knob to tighten the wheel takes care of the pull but I know this isn't possible with a tiller.

Dan and Julie
Jewel E28+

 

[dworkman]

Thanks to all of you for excellent feedback. The boat of interest has a 2 blade prop and it has an auto helm. I'm sure that the strong pull is normal from what you have said. I'll ask the surveyor to check the rudder for alignment as well as the prop shaft. While I have your eyes, how are the Ericsons for bottom blistering?
Dave

 

[Frank Langer]

re: your question on blistering

In response to your question about Ericsons and blistering, you might want to do a search on this site for previous posts, as there have been many discussions. Most people consider Ericson quality to be quite good. And as Ericsons were built over several decades, and with different models of boat, there is no single answer. In general, my understanding from reading as much as I can about Ericsons, they are not more prone to blisters than other boats. Many are entirely blister-free, while others have developed blisters, sometimes only a few and at times many more. There was some question whether the later boats that were built in Mexico for a few years, were more prone to blisters, but I don't think that has been proven. I have a 1984 Ericson 30+ which so far has no sign of blisters.
Others may have different opinions.
Frank.

 

[34now]

Wheel pull to port while motoring

Hey if anyone is still looking at this thread--any ideas on my post yesterday--our boat is on the hard and needs a decision--do other late 80s 34s (or 32s or 36s) pull to port a lot while motoring??:

We have a 1988 E34-2. lots of wheel pull to port while motoring, and much less while "gliding" out of gear and also sailing at speed (while comparing upwind on each tack). Our prop shaft is slightly to starboard, which I understand MAY be the cause form earlier posts (on other size Ericsons). But there is still a small pull while sailing...

The keel was faired to be in-line w/ the boat a few years ago (one side built up aft), no improvement. Now the rudder is out and a bit asymmetric, the port side has more draft (thicker in the middle) by just over 3/8" for over 75% of the height. It is also a bit twisted top to bottom, only 5/16"--does not seem important. The rudder has been reparied a few times or maybe came asymmetric. But now I suspect this might not matter. ANY THOUGHTS ON THIS??

The rudder is not waterlogged and bearings will get bronze shims as that seems to be the only fix for them a little worn.
THANKS.

 

[Loren Beach]

Fairness and Symetry

Having an asymetric foil shape on a rudder would affect any boat movement, under wind or diesel power.

I would want to check out the rudder foil. Easy way to get a close idea of what's goin' on.... get some stiff cardboard or posterboard, then chalk off three zones from top to lower part, and then razor blade three sections of (labeled) board for each zone on one side. Next, flip each one over and see how it compares to the other side of the foil.
You could check the keel that way -- just use bigger boards or maybe switch to stiffer door skins.
:nerd:
No matter what a prior owner is said to have done or not done, nothing beats empirical information that you have personally verified.

Sight down the plane of the keel and rudder while the boat is blocked up -- they should line up dead even. (Ours do.)

As to having a little torque steer under power, yeah we have a little, but nothing that wears the arm muscles or works the AP very much.

Best of luck,
LB

 

[Seth]

Pulling problems

For the 28-as has been said, the engine is designed this way, so there is no "alingnment correction" in terms of the engine/prop shaft installation. For other reasons you want to be sure the shaft aligmnent and prop selection are "correct", but it won't cure this..This is one of the reasons the wheel was such a popular option on this boat-the "pull" is less bothersome with a wheel.
The boat has many great characteristics to offset this though, and if you have an autohelm-just use it when powering for any distance..

For the 34, you have somethinig wrong with the keel or rudder-either an assymetric condition or the rudder shaft is not straight in the boat (less likely of the 2)...you need to have the keel and rudder looked at and measured to be sure the foil shape is both symmetrical and correct (in terms of foil shape and max chord location). If there are no folks at your yard who can really evaluate this, you may want to have someone who does race boat bottom preparation, or a boat builder have a good look-pay him/her a few hours of their time-or depending on where you are, maybe a naval architect is close enough to have a look.

Loren is not too far from you and probably has a few ideas as to who you can contact for help..Loren???
Cheers,
S

 

[34now]

thanks and more data on our 34

Thanks Seth and Loren,
I was too brief in my previous post. We did make a few templates of the rudder, and the yard made 6 of them from thin plywood. They seem to show asymmetry on the order of what I put on last time [port side has more draft (thicker in the middle) by just over 3/8" (maybe more) for over 75% of the height]. The rudder is flat black and the leading edge is so blunt that I am not certain could see it well enough and we had the templates all lined up correctly when we overlaid them and traced them to examine them on a flat surface, am checking again today and will re-measure and post.

It pulls hared while motoring and much less while gliding, but still pulls a bit while gliding and sailing. The prop does push a lot of water by the rudder, so they seem connected.

The prop shaft (aft end) and prop are almost 3/4" to stbd. That was measured yesterday (see image). (The aft section of the keel was faired a few yrs ago to get it in the middle of the boat, as the trailing edge of the keel was to port by around 1/2" plus--no change in pull). The manual says you have to drop the rudder to pull the shaft, and nothing about off-center. The support for the shaft is pretty much vertical and very solid. It needs a new cutless bearing but this seems minor. I have read how solid this piece needs to be and do not feel like having it reset.

The rudder post is not bent and is all in pretty good shape. Ruder tip position was also measured prior to taking rudder out and was v close to vertical.

Seth you say the 34 should not have to pull issue like the 28.
So the questions now are:

1. Are these 2 items additive for the reported pull?

2. Should the prop shaft be off-center by desgn??

3. And how much asymmetry in a rudder is enough to cause the strong pull to port--especially while powering?

THANKS, Jim

 

[34now]

more info on 34 rudder

Well if you are still tuned in at all, checked the plywood rudder templates again. The asymmetry port to stbd (75% of rudder ht) is 1/4 to 5/16", mostly 5/16", when comparing port to stbd templates, over much of the chord length. Yes fatter on the port side. see images.

Foss in FL can make a rudder replacement, but now cost is up to $3,000 or more. Not going to go for that without some certainty as to how this rudder shape and prop off-center effect hydrodynamics.

thanks again, Jim