Waste Discharge - Replace or Remove

[KS Dave]

Been doing some reading in other threads, and found some similar from back in 2006 and 2008. Would like to see if anyone has any new enlightenments on the topic.

When I pull the boat out this Spring, one task I'm going to take into consideration is replacing through-hulls. They're all original, so I'm not sure what I can trust and what I can't. Many of the seacocks haven't been exercised in years, so I'm afraid to even touch them right now.

Specifically, what should I do with the waste discharge through-hull and seacock? Being on a lake in Kansas, discharging overboard will never be an option. Is it better to remove the old seacock and through-hull, glass it over, and be done with it? Others have removed the hoses and put a plug in, but that still assumes the through-hull is going to hold. Replacing it with new certainly doesn't seem like a good long-term choice, since I have no intention of using it. But, maybe that's the easiest (I currently have zero fiberglass skills). Removing it would certainly reduce the connections by the waste tank.

Honestly, I'd like to remove the whole setup and replace it with a composting head, but I need the $850 for other things my first season of ownership. The head still works, as far as I know, and was replaced in the last 10-ish years. And while the thought of pumping out the waste tank with some frequency and cleaning/winterizing it every year doesn't thrill me, I'm willing to do at least that to put the money to other projects.

Appreciate your thoughts and experience on this. Especially those who might have done something like this years ago. Any regrets?

 

[bigd14]

I replaced all of my head seacocks including the overboard discharge and afterwards realized I should have glassed it over.

There are many resources for patching thru hulls. Here is one:

I think this guy overdid the amount of grinding. If the hull is really thick, say more than half an inch, I have only partially ground it out and used a G10 puck to fit the actual cutout and various filler materials to get the bulk of the thickness then install layers of biaxial fiberglass over that. Saves a bunch of grinding.

But if you do not have any fiberglass supplies a thru hull and seacock that you can block off may actually be cheaper!

 

[Christian Williams]

What worries you about your through-hulls? Try exercising them. Or just leave them closed for the moment. Do they seem damaged in some way?

 

[Frank Langer]

I once had a call from a sailboat owner who lived far away, and needed someone to check his boat. Someone had given him my phone number. His boat was unlocked, so I entered, noticed old cushions askew, dishes in the sink. Trying to do a good job, I began a fairly thorough check, noticed one seacock open. I gently tried to close it, and the handle broke off in my hand!! I checked his boat weekly all winter, and he paid me a reasonable fee, but I'll never forget that seacock handle breaking.
The lessons were firstly, to operate the seacocks regularly to keep them operating well, and secondly, to be very careful with an unknown or questionable seacock.
Frank

 

[KS Dave]

Thanks for the replies. I intend to acquire both the skills and materials to learn to fiberglass repair, but wonder how good of an idea having my first projects be below-the-waterline repairs.

Christian - I think what worries me most about all of them is the unknown. Like the story Frank related. They don't seem damaged, but if I exercise them now and something catastrophic happens, then I'm stuck. I don't have a way to get it out of the water in a hurry nor do I have any emergency plugs or anything of that sort.

Some of them have PVC coming right out of the through-hull. That also worries me. In the attached, the first picture is under the sink in the head and has the electric bilge out (small one - above waterline) and the sink drain, I think? The second is under the v-berth; pretty sure the waste discharge is down low. I'm not sure what the upper one does.

 

[Christian Williams]

Yes, those plastic elbows aren't approved for below the waterline and probably have no place on our boats. Looks like maybe a Sterns product. If it's really PVC, it's lawn-irrigation quality.

But the Marelon valves may be fine. Mine are/were on both mid-80s boats.

It can be hard to find an elbow that matches both threads, or so my surveyor told me (he disapproves of my Marelon elbows, which go to bronze, because the threads don't match). But worth a search next haulout.

 

[JPS27]

I considered the same change on my 27. I sail in the southern chesapeake bay and don't send the head waste water overboard ever. I have thought about going to a composting head, or keeping what I have and glassing over the overboard T-H. In the end I've decided to replace T-Hs with proper plates, flanged seacocks etc. I did 4 T-Hs a couple of years ago on the aft end of the boat. I'm about to change out the Signet instrument and head related T-Hs. They all look dicey with old wooden backing plates and on the seawater intake, dissimilar metals. For me, it costed out best to replace T-Hs and by scouring the internet for the best groco prices. Rather than getting into a composting head (prices continue to rise). Also, I figured a future buyer might appreciate new T-Hs including the head T-Hs. The latter point was probably my deciding factor to not make huge changes.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Thanks for the replies. I intend to acquire both the skills and materials to learn to fiberglass repair, but wonder how good of an idea having my first projects be below-the-waterline repairs.

Christian - I think what worries me most about all of them is the unknown. Like the story Frank related. They don't seem damaged, but if I exercise them now and something catastrophic happens, then I'm stuck. I don't have a way to get it out of the water in a hurry nor do I have any emergency plugs or anything of that sort.

Some of them have PVC coming right out of the through-hull. That also worries me. In the attached, the first picture is under the sink in the head and has the electric bilge out (small one - above waterline) and the sink drain, I think? The second is under the v-berth; pretty sure the waste discharge is down low. I'm not sure what the upper one does.

View attachment 37373View attachment 37374

Ah, the PVC plumbing bits! That was indeed installed by some genius at Ericson. My boat had them also. It should go without saying that this is totally unacceptable, especially for an application below the waterline. The Ericsons, while good generally, were nevertheless production boats built to a price, and this is Exhibit A.

This obviously was noted by the surveyor at the time (and by me), and although it didn't keep me from buying the boat, it was something I set about to correct almost imediately. My insurer (BoatUS) would only insure the boat provisionally, with the requirement that I replace out those pieces within a certain number of months. (I forget how many just now.) But as I said, I took care of this one right away.

The Marelon seacocks, on the other hand, would not bother me in the least if they are in good working order.

 

[nquigley]

For your first haul-out, I'd suggest just planning to replace the seacock bodies on those that are stuck due to infrequent exercising - a common problem. If your actual through-hulls are not leaking, I suggest leaving them as is - it can be a lot of work to remove them.
It's also fairly time-consuming to close up an old through hull hole - if that waster water seacock isn't leaking, I suggest just leaving it. It's likely bronze and not plastic/Marlow, so it should have a long life.

I planned to replace all through hulls and seacocks when I hauled out for painting last September: two Marlon seacock handles were stuck and I didn't want to force them while in the water. I got the stuck ones unscrewed when hauled out, but then realized that getting the through-hulls out was going to be a major deal, and I didn't have time for it. So, since none of them were leaking, I just replaced the 2 stuck seacocks with new ones and postponed replacement of the others for another time - the threads of the new seacocks matched those coming up from the through-hull. I used Tru Design seacocks.

Tru Design

Leaders in Marine Composite Fittings.

www.trudesign.nz

... ordered through GEMlux in FL

Stainless Steel Marine & Boat Hardware | Fishing Boat Hardware

For over 50 years GEMLUX® Inc. has been delivering world class, highly engineered stainless steel marine hardware, on time, and with a smile.

gemlux.com

The clever stabilization collars on TruDesign seacocks rested nicely on the square (~4'x4") wooden blocks under my original seacocks (my blocks were all in excellent condition - after 35 years!!).
I wasn't sure ahead of time exactly what thread diameter I needed for each seacock so I ordered a couple seacock sizes and an assortment of hose-connecting elbows and tail pieces - GEMlux was happy to buy the extras back later. They sell a huge range of elbows and tail pieces to meet whatever needs you'd have for how your hoses have to run.

It's common to make a long punch-list before you haul out, only to find you can't get through it all with the time (and $) available. Prioritize the must-do things and get to the nice-to-have things if time permits.
Good luck.

 

[KS Dave]

Wow, great info. For context, I'm on a lake where I can always see the shore, but it could be a cold swim certain times of the year. That being said, I suspect freshwater doesn't destroy things like saltwater does, and I have to keep that in mind.

So, let me summarize:

1. Definitely replace the PVC elbows with something else. It might tricky to find an elbow that matches the threads, but GEMlux might have some good options with TruDesign products.
2. Good point on the "haul-out projects list". I do want to actually sail the boat.
3. So, if I want to cap off the waste discharge and remove clutter, can I just screw a threaded plug into the north-end of the seacock for extra insurance? Then exercise it occasionally (but the water really won't go anywhere)?
4. If the Marelon seacocks are a little tight at first, but loosen without having to Magilla-Gorilla them, is that all I need to do? Any other lubrication or anything to help them?
5. Generally speaking, if through-hulls are not leaking and not obviously cracked or broken upon haul-out inspection, am I good to leave them (even at 36 years old)?
6. Obviously, if I need to replace through-hulls, JPS (and countless others) make the point of doing it "right" with bronze-on-bronze. But, I'd much rather spend that $200/hole on something else if I don't have to.

Appreciate further thoughts on this. I know this is a topic that gets beat to death, but as newer and better stuff comes out, and decisions y'all made years ago play out, it's nice to hear how it evolves, too.

 

[JPS27]

to your point #3, for the last two years I have had a 12" +/- length of sanitation hose double clamped to the barbed fitting on the ball valve. That hose ends above the water line, (which I figured out by using clear hose and opening the valve). Then I put one of those wooden plugs into the other end and double clamped that.

to your point #5, i have found based on an n=4 that you can't always tell a T-H state (on a new to you boat) until you are out of the water and give it a go. All 4 that I replaced looked about the same. Some I had to wrestle out, and one I practically took out with my pinky finger. I got them all out in a day if memory serves.

 

[KS Dave]

to your point #3, for the last two years I have had a 12" +/- length of sanitation hose double clamped to the barbed fitting on the ball valve. That hose ends above the water line, (which I figured out by using clear hose and opening the valve). Then I put one of those wooden plugs into the other end and double clamped that.

Ahh, yes; end it above the waterline. Do you mean those emergency wood plugs they sell? The ones I should probably have located close to all my of through-hulls in case one breaks along with a hammer to pound it in? Or at the very least, have a bag of them stowed somewhere. Those wooden plugs?

to your point #5, i have found based on an n=4 that you can't always tell a T-H state (on a new to you boat) until you are out of the water and give it a go. All 4 that I replaced looked about the same. Some I had to wrestle out, and one I practically took out with my pinky finger. I got them all out in a day if memory serves.

Good to know.

 

[1911tex]

For your first haul-out, I'd suggest just planning to replace the seacock bodies on those that are stuck due to infrequent exercising - a common problem. If your actual through-hulls are not leaking, I suggest leaving them as is - it can be a lot of work to remove them.
It's also fairly time-consuming to close up an old through hull hole - if that waster water seacock isn't leaking, I suggest just leaving it. It's likely bronze and not plastic/Marlow, so it should have a long life.

I planned to replace all through hulls and seacocks when I hauled out for painting last September: two Marlon seacock handles were stuck and I didn't want to force them while in the water. I got the stuck ones unscrewed when hauled out, but then realized that getting the through-hulls out was going to be a major deal, and I didn't have time for it. So, since none of them were leaking, I just replaced the 2 stuck seacocks with new ones and postponed replacement of the others for another time - the threads of the new seacocks matched those coming up from the through-hull. I used Tru Design seacocks.

Tru Design

Leaders in Marine Composite Fittings.

www.trudesign.nz

... ordered through GEMlux in FL

Stainless Steel Marine & Boat Hardware | Fishing Boat Hardware

For over 50 years GEMLUX® Inc. has been delivering world class, highly engineered stainless steel marine hardware, on time, and with a smile.

gemlux.com

The clever stabilization collars on TruDesign seacocks rested nicely on the square (~4'x4") wooden blocks under my original seacocks (my blocks were all in excellent condition - after 35 years!!).
I wasn't sure ahead of time exactly what thread diameter I needed for each seacock so I ordered a couple seacock sizes and an assortment of hose-connecting elbows and tail pieces - GEMlux was happy to buy the extras back later. They sell a huge range of elbows and tail pieces to meet whatever needs you'd have for how your hoses have to run.

It's common to make a long punch-list before you haul out, only to find you can't get through it all with the time (and $) available. Prioritize the must-do things and get to the nice-to-have things if time permits.
Good luck.

Great suggestions. I would keep all plumbing original...but replaced against failure. If I were looking at your boat for purchase down the road, hypothetically, I would want everything the factory installed intact and updated. A buyer may even want to move it to another lake or bay.

 

[Loren Beach]

We changed out all of the original '88 factory black Marelon thruhulls, back in the 90's.

OEM - Pro Series Seacocks

The Smart Valve provides the safety and assurance of a visual display panel showing which seacock is open or closed-without having to go below and pull up floorboards to make a visual inspection. Sensors, factory installed, on any single port, Marelon Integrated Plumbing System flange mounted...

www.forespar.com

Note that these newer-design Forespar valve can have tail pieces oriented any direction. They are not "better" than bronze, but do have the considerable virtue of indifference to electrolysis.
Forespar always called them an "OEM" product, but they are long since sold by chandlers, commonly.
(I was told that originally they tried to limit sales to boatyards because their choice of a thread angle made the design incompatible with the other two common pipe threads in use and they were concerned about an end user attempting to play mix-n-match with inappropriate plumbing.)

 

[1911tex]

We changed out all of the original '88 factory black Marelon thruhulls, back in the 90's.

OEM - Pro Series Seacocks

The Smart Valve provides the safety and assurance of a visual display panel showing which seacock is open or closed-without having to go below and pull up floorboards to make a visual inspection. Sensors, factory installed, on any single port, Marelon Integrated Plumbing System flange mounted...

www.forespar.com

Note that these newer-design Forespar valve can have tail pieces oriented any direction. They are not "better" than bronze, but do have the considerable virtue of indifference to electrolysis.
Forespar always called them an "OEM" product, but they are long since sold by chandlers, commonly.
(I was told that originally they tried to limit sales to boatyards because their choice of a thread angle made the design incompatible with the other two common pipe threads in use and they were concerned about an end user attempting to play mix-n-match with inappropriate plumbing.)

Loren thank you for the thru hull valve page !

 

[bigd14]

We would be remiss if we did not direct you to one of the best resources on the web regarding thru hullsand seacock replacement.

Seacocks, Strainers & Hose Clamps Archives - Marine How To

Marine How To is the premier site for DIY boaters to get in depth articles for maintenance, upgrades and insight from a professional. I sell products that I know work, because I've worked with them. I tell it like it is. No sponsors, except my readers!

marinehowto.com

 

[Bobby Steele]

The first thing we did after buying our E34-2 was to remove the head, plug the hose and put in a composting head. It was winter - so we left it at that. Once things warmed up, we embarked on the project of removing the holding tank and hoses. Now, we gave plenty of extra storage space if we ever need it. The hardest part was removing those green, steel-reinforced hoses.
then, when we had the boat hauled for a much- needed cleaning/paint ( suspecting PO hadn’t done so in several years) we had the yard replace the thruhulls - with the idea that the next owners may prefer a standard head, and this would make it more appealing if they didn’t have to consider the cost of having to go through a full installation.

 

[Martin King]

I replaced all of my head seacocks including the overboard discharge and afterwards realized I should have glassed it over.

There are many resources for patching thru hulls. Here is one:

I think this guy overdid the amount of grinding. If the hull is really thick, say more than half an inch, I have only partially ground it out and used a G10 puck to fit the actual cutout and various filler materials to get the bulk of the thickness then install layers of biaxial fiberglass over that. Saves a bunch of grinding.

But if you do not have any fiberglass supplies a thru hull and seacock that you can block off may actually be cheaper!

Actually his grinding looked fairly appropriate. I have a problem with his assertion that because the boat is made with polyester resin, you should use polyester to laminate up a patch. Epoxy is clearly superior in secondary bonding applications such as this and would be the professional choice.

Regarding through hulls and piping, those plastic elbows have no place on board. If it were my boat, all though hulls and seacocks would be replaced with bronze period.

Martin