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Weather helm / helm balance question

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
How do you (personally -- looking for your experience with your Ericson) adjust your helm balance? Also, roughly how much weather helm is acceptable/normal for Ericson's (and at what angle of heel)?

I am finding 1-2 spokes worth almost always; Raymarine wheel-pilot starts struggling with anything over ~ 1 spoke worth, and I underdtand windvanes will too, so I want to be able to control this better (plus for speed/efficiency).

That 1+ spoke worth is (e.g.) on a close reach in 10 kts True, with a 130% jib trimmed to spill air from the top and the (full) main sheeted out until practically luffing (carrying a large bubble in luff/front of the full main). The thing I do not understand is that I would have thought unloading the main should reduce/eliminate weather helm -- and in fact allow me to get some lee helm. 10 kts true seems too low for the answer to be that I should have reefed the main, though maybe that's it -- boat (E34 basically) was not overpowered; rail not in water, not even that close -- not taking any wave bits over rail at all, so don't think issue was heel-induced weather helm... unless that kicks in seriously when one still has 6" of clear freeboard on the lee side (sorry; no inclinometer) -- are the boats that delicate in terms of handling? Traveler was centered, but that should have further depowered the main by allowing more sheet out/leech to curve off and spill air. Sails are ~ 25 years old, so assume their shape is poor.

Anyway, I am used to (in other boats -- Catalina 36's, J24's) being able to adjust helm balance reasonably easily... feel that either I forgot how (possible: fair period of no sailing prior to getting this Ericson) or there is a trick with the Ericson.

Any comments/advice appreciated.



PS: 8 spoke wheel, 1.5 turns - so 12 spokes worth of turn to either side until the stop; unsure exactly where the stop is, so assume this is somewhat less than 7.5 degrees/spoke (assuming 90 deg. at full stop... suspect it might be less, since 90 deg seems pointless). So I'm talking 7.5-15 deg of weather helm. By two spokes (~ 15 deg) you really feel it on the helm. 1 spoke seems pretty steady; in fact sometimes I can get the boat to sail with that without even putting the wheel brake on -- rudder just stays over at one spoke off for quite some time with hand off wheel. I have been assuming that one should aim for ~ 1/2 spoke (~ 5 deg ish) of weather helm as a matter of safety; my question here is more about why I can't seem to affect it by depowering the main -- once I can control it, I can figure out what works best for me.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi,
Owners with an E34 will be able to give you better information, but for now, all the books I've read state that 3 - 4 degrees of rudder turn should be enough to counteract weather helm, so your 7 - 15 is way too much. Your 25 year old sails are likely totally bagged out, increasing your heel and slowing forward speed, all increasing your weather helm.
Our 1984 E30+ will sail easily in 10 to 12 knots of wind with full mainsail and 125% headsail and boat heeled to 15 to 20 degrees with barely noticeable weather helm. I have relatively new sails and am fussy about rig tune. If you haven't tuned the rig, that should be a high priority. Folks on this site can give guidance if needed.
Frank
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Your 25 year old sails are likely totally bagged out, increasing your heel and slowing forward speed, all increasing your weather helm
I believe that this is, for many boats and not just Ericson's, the weather helm version of the old saying regarding an "elephant in the room". But that's just an opinion.
:)
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Your sails are beyond shot more than two times over. Treat yourself to a new main. You’ll be amazed at the difference.
 

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
Thanks; I was already clear on the new sails thing (new main and re-cut of newer 100% jib are both underway by sailmaker), but did not appreciate that new sails would affect weather helm, just speed. If I had understood the link to weather helm I would have waited until the new sails are on -- approx. 6 weeks -- to post.

I'll return to this thread if those don't fix the problem. Thanks again.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The key to reducing weather helm is reducing heel, and it's usually that simple.

Heel makes the rudder work as a brake, and heel makes the boat, by design, want to head up.

To fly lots of sail area to windward on an Ericson, or any boat, weight is required on the windward rail. That's why racing crews sit there.

And the helmsman must feather up as necessary in gusts. He controls heel angle that way.

Consider boats that don't reef--a Laser, or the Star class, or the old 12 Meters. They are sailed feathered in heavy air, a lost basic skill.

Baggy old sails are certainly a big factor, but the guy at the helm counts a lot. .

Ericsons are tender, compared to a coal barge, and require touch.

And on a reach, the Ericson hull form is intolerant of overtrimmed sails. When in doubt let it out.
 

Michael Edwards

Member II
I will say, WOW what a difference a new mainsail makes! I didn’t appreciate it until we had to replace the previous one. I didn’t notice anyone mention mast rake. On our E-32, we have a back stay adjuster, it’s fun to fiddle with, but bending the mast isn’t one of things we do much. I would have to put down my beverage. Lastly, if our rail is in the water, our rudder is out of the water! We had two Catalinas ( 22& 27), that we washed the windows on frequently.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Weather helm will start around 15 degrees of heel */- on a modern fin keel/spade rudder boat, so, YES, they are fairly delicate to balance. Weather helm will start much sooner than 6 inches of lee side freeboard. I suspect it’s the old sails. I can carry my newer, laminate 150 genoa to 12 knots true (max) without anyone on the rail or weather helm. Our Ericsons have large jibs and relatively small mains compared to modern designs, so depowering the main has less impact on heel due to it’s smaller percentage of total sail area.
Mark
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
N.A., After you install the new sails you’ll definitely notice a difference in helm control, as I did after replacing the “bagged out” original sails on my E32-3 (1987) a few years ago, and IMHO helm control is where good sailing begins. I like speed as much as anyone else but a comfortable & safe ride is more important to me and my passengears. I don’t count spokes or even look at the inclinometer that often. The ”feel” of the helm and the tell-tails are what I give most of my attention. When sailing with a strong wind forward of the beam I control the helm by first adjusting the traveler while flattening the main with the sheet (this is where new sails help). Still too much weather helm? Then roll in some head sail. At this point if the wind makes it too difficult to roll in some of the head sail then I’ll turn the boat to sail downwind which take a lot of pressure off making the shorting of the sail easier. Finally if there still is too much weather helm then I go to reefing the main and possibly pulling in more head sail. By the way, I recently moved all the reefing control lines to the cockpit which makes for a much safer reefing process. No more having to leave the cockpit. I also check wind conditions before leaving the dock and pre-reef the main if I feel the need. I can always shake it out.

With the newer sails, adjusting the traveler, rolling in some genoa, reefing the main, then trimming the sails I often find that the more acceptable weather helm makes for a more comfortable ride, allowing me to re-engage the auto helm without it struggling to keep the course and gaining back much of the speed lost by the combination of too much rudder correction and heeling. Ericsons are lighter and more tender boats then most in their size class and so need more attention but when balanced well they sail well.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
When sailing with a strong wind forward of the beam I control the helm by first adjusting the traveler while flattening the main with the sheet (this is where new sails help).
Wouldn't tightening the mainsheet be counterproductive for reducing weather helm in heavier air? Easing the sheet would introduce twist into the leech (assuming not too much vang), which would help get the boat back on its feet. Then, you would use the traveler to move the boom to the correct position athwartships, granting that easing the sheet would also let the boom fall off to leeward. Flattening the sail with other sail controls (e.g., cunningham, outhaul) would help also.

Any other thoughts on this?
 

Parrothead

Member III
Anything that moves the center of effort of the sailplan forward will ease weather helm. On my former boat, a tiller steered, 24,000 lb. Westsail 32, my main had negative roach that resulted in perfect balance.
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
Wouldn't tightening the mainsheet be counterproductive for reducing weather helm in heavier air? Easing the sheet would introduce twist into the leech (assuming not too much vang), which would help get the boat back on its feet. Then, you would use the traveler to move the boom to the correct position athwartships, granting that easing the sheet would also let the boom fall off to leeward. Flattening the sail with other sail controls (e.g., cunningham, outhaul) would help also.

Any other thoughts on this?
When close hauled moving the traveler to leeward and flattening the sail, along with reefing the sail and flattening the main, gets the boat back up on its feet and reduced weather helm giving better control. Introducing twist will increase drag and heel the boat more.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
When close hauled moving the traveler to leeward and flattening the sail, along with reefing the sail and flattening the main, gets the boat back up on its feet and reduced weather helm giving better control. Introducing twist will increase drag and heel the boat more.
I get the part about dropping the traveler, but I'm still wondering about the twist part. Wouldn't twisting off the top of the sail depower it?

Here are a few quotes from a couple of tuning guides I just pulled up:

"In heavy winds, you can reduce power by easing the sheets and increasing twist. Power is then spilled out of the upper third of the sail, where the wind is at its strongest." (Don Guilette, Sail Trim User's Guide, p. 16).

"In particular, the aft part of the main, the leech, is an important influence on the directional tendency of the boat. A closed or tight leech 'kicks' the airflow to windward, creating a large side force to leeward at the stern of your boat. This creates weather helm and tends to push the bow to windward (See below).

Similarly, an open or twisted leech allows the air to flow easily off the mainsail without developing as much sideways force (See below). So you feel less windward helm." (North Sails Fast Course--Mainsail Trim [https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/North-Sails-Fast-Course-Mainsail-Trim/-51913])
 

N.A.

E34 / SF Bay
Thanks again, everyone. I agree with much, and will return to the question if the new sails don't solve it. I am also getting an inclinometer ($25, in boat terms practically free...) so I will know for sure when I'm at 15 degrees or more, and can keep it sufficiently flat. That said, I don't think I was heeling that much... my current guess is folks here are correct that this was primarily old-sail-related. Separately, being an SF Bay sailor I am definitely familiar with feathering and agree about its utility, and also agree re: helm-feel. Still, I'm a numbers person, and the number I could use was in spokes or degrees.

@Alan Gomes : I will agree with you, and in fact OCSC (the sailing school that helped write a good bit of the US Sailing curriculum; sadly killed off by the pandemic, though resurrecting as "Inspire Sailing") always taught the "fisherman's reef", which everyone there regularly used upwind in 20+. It boils down to pulling the traveler to windward, and easing the main sheet to get the boom angle you want, with the result that there is a lot more main sheet out / less luff tension for the given angle of attack and the boom rises (compared to sheet in, traveler down, the whole point of which is to keep the main flat, as Bolo describes) and thus the leech curves and spills air, depowering the main. It works great; worth at least half a real reef. This was regular practice at OCSC even on boats with new(er) mains.

I have had debates with friends (living in lighter-wind areas) who talk of putting the traveler down to depower, and view my suggestion one would ever do anything else as placing me on the mental scale somewhere between woefully uniformed and simply unable to decipher the little black squiggles in the sailing books. As best I can tell, since experiment confirms that traveler down does not work nearly as well to depower as the fisherman's reef, is that both make sense, just in proper sequence: the easing the traveler-down approach is where one goes first to depower: starting from main in, traveler up enough to bring boom along centerline or whatever you prefer, then ease the traveler progressively down (effectively trimming out the angle of attack of the main by shifting boom angle to leeward, without changing leech) to depower. Once the traveler is fully down, though... it's either put in a (or another) real reef or... fisherman's reef by pulling that traveler all the way back up and easing the main sheet well out, spilling air from the leech just as you were describing. In a summer SF Bay afternoon as the wind peaks, on a J24 I'd normally have in two main reefs AND a fisherman's reef (plus a carry a bubble in the luff of the main). As @Christian Williams suggests re: feathering, the fisherman's reef is awfully handy. Of course, in lighter wind (East coast, where I learned to sail) feathering was called pinching, and beaten out of me... but out here in higher wind it's called feathering and taught in sailing schools. In a related way the fisherman's reef may be anathema in light-wind areas and mainly show up where wind regularly gets quite high.

@Bolo : Lest you think I am not paying attention to your suggestions, I plan to do as you specify the minute I get my new main -- in fact, I look forward to all the sail controls suddenly having the effects the books describe them as having. When suddenly overpowered, though, and/or before I have time to reef, or if I don't feel like putting in that much effort, I'll fisherman's reef.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Thanks again, everyone. I agree with much, and will return to the question if the new sails don't solve it. I am also getting an inclinometer ($25, in boat terms practically free...) so I will know for sure when I'm at 15 degrees or more, and can keep it sufficiently flat. That said, I don't think I was heeling that much... my current guess is folks here are correct that this was primarily old-sail-related. Separately, being an SF Bay sailor I am definitely familiar with feathering and agree about its utility, and also agree re: helm-feel. Still, I'm a numbers person, and the number I could use was in spokes or degrees.

Speaking of observing your inclinometer, you might label one up like this E-boat.....
:)
Having the correct expletive at hand saves time!


 

Parrothead

Member III
Mr. Scarlett:
I have no problem reefing at 10-12kn. The boat stands back up without slowing down, and steering is much improved.
Yep, sail shape is maintained and the center of effort moves forward.
 

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Yep, sail shape is maintained and the center of effort moves forward.
Parrothead raises a good point when it comes to the choice of shortening sail with the jib vs. the main.

This will vary with the particular boat to some degree. But an argument for reefing the main first vs. partially rolling up the jib is that a properly reefed main should maintain a good shape, while the more one rolls up a jib, the less optimum its shape. (I'm considering a roller furling jib, of course; hank on changes the equation completely.) My jib has a foam luff, and while this definitely helps, at some point the shape starts to go to pot. On the other hand, I'll sometimes reef the jib first because it's so quick and easy to do, especially if the wind picks up when I'm not far from my destination and it doesn't seem worth the effort to tuck in a mainsail reef for a short time.

Again, different boats will balance out differently. On my E-26, a deeply reefed main and full or slightly furled genoa can take a fair amount of wind with good performance. Being a fractional rig, the 135% genoa on my boat isn't all that large compared to a masthead rig. But in any case, for best performance, I reduce the main first followed by progressively rolling up the jib.
 

Parrothead

Member III
Alan Gomes:
Again, different boats will balance out differently.
So true. Variables from boat to boat include the center of lateral resistance, the sail plan (center of effort), even mast rake. All have significant effects on helm balance. In overpowering conditions, severe heeling affects the center of lateral resistance too. The choice in such conditions is to reef or spoil the sail trim (suggested more than once in this thread) to depower. My preference by far is the former for reasons mentioned previously.
 
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