When to reef? Putting this experience out there (be gentle?)

[907Juice]

Thanks everyone for all the help. I've spent a bunch of time on the boat actually enjoying the boat and sailing. I had an incident a few days ago. We were sailing pretty solid in 10-15 knot winds and about 2 ft rollers. My wife was at the helm and we caught a pretty good gust keeling us over and freaked her out. She needed a break and went below leaving me alone for a bit in the cockpit. My boat isn't really set up for any kind of single handed sailing so I just dropped the jib and sailed downwind back to the harbor under the mainsail only. I know it is pretty inefficient and not the best way to do it, but I didn't want to deal with running the tiller as well as running the jib sheets. She came back up after a few moments and everything ended up working out for a nice day. Looking back I'm wondering if I should've just reefed sooner as the winds were obviously getting stronger. Thanks for any advice.


Juice

 

[Christian Williams]

I reef early, especially if anybody aboard has doubts. I sail under jib alone, if feeling lazy. I figure it's same as a car, sails are accelerator pedal. I often leave dock with reef in. They're easy to shake out. I figure only amateurs carry too much sail, afraid they'll look like amateurs. I control my boat, I sail only as I prefer. With passengers, my goal is like airline pilot--they should hardly notice procedures and feel no g forces. I want them to fly with me again. It's one perspective. There are others.

 

[Emerald]

I've often reefed at the dock when it looked like everyone else was headed out with full sail, and the 31 as a cutter is not a tall rig - you could argue I'm way over cautious. Result? A lot of really nice sails with a well balanced boat on her feet and sailing as well as she sails. And on those days when I needed the full main after all, it's so easy to shake out a reef, with everyone on board smiling, but trying to put one in on a pitching boat with everyone's tension going up is no fun at all! Reef early. Nothing wrong with that. I see boats with too much sail up all the time around here. Listen too how your boat feels. It's easy to get faked out watching everyone else.

 

[tenders]

Yeah, well, I've been there too. The difference between your wife and my wife is that my wife would never have come out again, and upon returning to the mooring we would have had to launch a search party to check the bilge, anchor locker, under-cushion storage, and flare canister to locate her.

I rarely reef the main. Now that I'm thinking about it, for the last two seasons I haven't even rigged the reefing lines. (I will probably reconsider this if we race on a windy day, but so far that hasn't happened.)

The way this works is: if it's windy enough to want a reef in the main, I put the main away entirely and adjust the amount of sail with the roller-furled genoa. Most of the time I haven't even raised the main, in fact I haven't even taken off the sail cover. Actually I think there was a season or two when my boat partner's family and mine both had little kids and we didn't even rig the mainsail at all.

My boat happens to sail very well with genoa alone, though. YMMV.

 

[907Juice]

Thanks and I agree guys. I'll just plan on reefing out of the harbor next time. Happy wife - happy sailing (or wife I can't remember). We are still new so better to have fun than go faster.

And BTW Christian! Solid work in your trip to Hawaii. Someday I'll get there.

Juice

 

[Jbaffoh]

It really depends on the boat. I have two boats and they both behave very differently.

But before getting into that, you might want to find the AVS of your boat and describe that to your wife. The angle of vanishing stability is the point where the righting moment is zero and a capsized boat will not right itself. Your mast will be deep in the water before that happens--and a gust isn't going to do that to you. I would guess that your boat's AVS is 120-140 degrees. I would also guess that your wife gets nervous heeling 20 degrees. Therefore, the boat could heel an aditional 80-100 degrees and still right itself. There is comfort in that.

Also, some boats, like my Ericson 34, are initially tender but they reach a point where they stiffen up and are rock solid. My 34 is a 1978 IOR design, which sails at its best with 20-25 degrees of heel. Because of old racing rules, they did this to increase the waterline length under sail compared to when upright at the dock--it's all about gaining advantage while technically complying with the rules. Anyway, 20-25 degrees is pretty steep--the rail is wet and nearly under water. 12-15 knots of wind will easily get it there--but it doesn't go further. It was designed to be that way. That's also where I usually reef that boat.

My other boat is more typical and likes to be sailed close to her lines. With full main and a Code 0, she will heel around 15 degrees in 25 knots. I will throw in a reef and go to my No. 3 headsail (110) to keep her around 10 degrees. In 40 kts, two reefs and a No. 3 furled to a small triangle for balance will keep her within 10 degrees while still maintaining 8.5-9 kts boat speed. She really prefers to be on her feet instead of her ear.

Your mileage will vary. Get to know your boat and get a feel for her limits. Just remember, what might feel steep for you or your wife is nothing at all for your boat. Go experiment, learn how to flatten the sails to depower them, and prepare to ease the mainsheet if you are met with any surprises.

 

[bkuchinic]

This is my first season with my E34-II, and I read jbaffoh's comment with interest: "Also, some boats, like my Ericson 34, are initially tender but they reach a point where they stiffen up and are rock solid. My 34 is a 1978 IOR design, which sails at its best with 20-25 degrees of heel. Because of old racing rules, they did this to increase the waterline length under sail compared to when upright at the dock--it's all about gaining advantage while technically complying with the rules. Anyway, 20-25 degrees is pretty steep--the rail is wet and nearly under water. 12-15 knots of wind will easily get it there--but it doesn't go further. It was designed to be that way. That's also where I usually reef that boat."

Jbaffoh, is your statement about where the boat sails best based on your subjective experience, or insight from the designer (Bruce King?) or some more quantitative measure(s)? I, by the way, have exactly the same experience with my E34. It is "rock solid" with the rail very close to the water, and it easily gets there in 12-15 kts of wind. With my (limited) experience if she's overpowered NOMAD will head up quickly with a gust, but not heal much further.

Thank you for your insight -

Brad

 

[Bolo]

13 knots

Of course, it depends on the boat. Mine is a E32-3. I always check the winds using the weather buoys in the bay and the forecast. If there is a hit of blowing over 13 knots then I put a reef in the main and roll the jib out to about 50 to 75% and then sail for awhile to see how she handles. If winds remain below 13 knots then I shake the reef out but I usually let out more jib first. It's easier to roll that back in then put the reef back in. Reefing and understanding how important it is to have less sail out in a big blow was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. I'll often see over-powered boats in a big wind on the bay while I'm reefed. Our boat Vesper will be up on its feet and sailing along at 6 to almost 7 knots while the over powered boats are heeled over hard with too much hull in the water and going slower. I think for a new sailor it seems counterintuitive, more sail should equal more speed. But that's not the case at all. Too much hull in the water, like you get with excessive heeling slows the boat down and just adds to the problem. Also learn how to use your traveler too which helps a great deal with the main in heavy and also light winds too. My wife is usually at the helm, when I'm not solo sailing, and she really objects to too much weather helm and rightly so because that often is because of being over powdered. So learning when and how to reef will make sailing more enjoyable and less stressful for all on board. Best thing to do is to read up on it and then go out in higher winds to practice. The more you do that then the more comfortable and confident the both of you will feel with sailing in higher winds.

 

[Jbaffoh]

This is my first season with my E34-II, and I read jbaffoh's comment with interest: "Also, some boats, like my Ericson 34, are initially tender but they reach a point where they stiffen up and are rock solid. My 34 is a 1978 IOR design, which sails at its best with 20-25 degrees of heel. Because of old racing rules, they did this to increase the waterline length under sail compared to when upright at the dock--it's all about gaining advantage while technically complying with the rules. Anyway, 20-25 degrees is pretty steep--the rail is wet and nearly under water. 12-15 knots of wind will easily get it there--but it doesn't go further. It was designed to be that way. That's also where I usually reef that boat."

Jbaffoh, is your statement about where the boat sails best based on your subjective experience, or insight from the designer (Bruce King?) or some more quantitative measure(s)? I, by the way, have exactly the same experience with my E34. It is "rock solid" with the rail very close to the water, and it easily gets there in 12-15 kts of wind. With my (limited) experience if she's overpowered NOMAD will head up quickly with a gust, but not heal much further.

Thank you for your insight -

Brad

Keep in mind that my Ericson is a 1978 34-T, which has pinched ends and a very IOR inspireed hull shape. It is nothing like the later Ericson 34's. While most boats like to sail on their feet, many IOR boats were designed to sail on their ear and they perform much better there. You asked what I base this statement on: 40 years of sailing, 12 years sailing that boat, my knowledge of boat design gleaned from sailing and racing many different boats, reading, and frequent discussions with my boat designer friend, Robert Perry. I have not discussed this with Bruce King.

If your 34 is a later one, it probably sails better upright like Bolo says. Some hulls create lots of drag when heeled. Some are designed for heeling and the waterline lengthens, essentially cheating the old IOR ratings.

Bolo is right about the traveler. Good helm balance is essential. Whenever you're feeling much weather helm, you're dragging the rudder through the water at an angle which creates excessive drag. You might as well drag a bucket through the water. On my Ericson I can balance it so that I can let go of the tiller even while heeled 25 degrees close hauled or in a close reach--and she tracks like she's on rails. It's all about good sail trim and usually dumping the traveler low.

 

[Starduff]

Reefing

A late Hi and Welcome Aboard, Juice!

As a rule of thumb, I usually reef at 14 KTS. Having said that I rarely have to do that. I let out the Main Sail in a Hard Knock (Strong Gust). I usually find I can adjust the Traveler and Main sheet in sustained winds up to 20 KTS or so (I don't check the wind speed acurately wile sailing). and roll in the Head Sail to a point if needed. Keep in mind if you haven't already learned, the Main Sail mostly provides stability. The Headsail mostly provides power.
Having said all that,I find it easier (and less work) to just use the Head Sail when out alone for a easy, short sail. And like someone said before, I have not even rigged my jiffy reefing in two years. Mostly because I have just been racing or day sailing and not cruising.
Any way, Keep on having fun, as I am sure you have been.

Polonius
E-28

 

[gadangit]

We had a few moments like that early in our sailing career. So we decided to be reefing masters. We practiced at the dock and out on the water repeatedly until we had our system down pat. Now it takes just moments to put a reef in and typically our guests have no idea we did it.

That was good advice above to talk about the righting moment and heeling. We also deliberately did a few maneuvers to put our boat in a bad position to see what would happen. She always shook it off and stood up. Granted we are sailing in 85 degree water in depths of about 10 feet, but we learned to trust that no matter what, the boat was going to stand up and take care of us.

We also target 20-25 degrees of heel when racing. I swear even more heel makes us faster, but leeway comes into play.

Good luck!

Chris

 

[toddster]

The important thing is to keep sailing as much as you can to figure out what works for you.

Re: Heading home downwind in increasing wind. It might be better to go with jib alone than with main alone. Not that I haven't done it the way you did, but I find that big gusts will round the boat up. It's annoying in open water, but potentially dangerous near shore or in traffic. So of course, that's where it alway happens.

As far as when to reef, obviously that varies by boat and crew. This formula that was presented for a completely different boat actually seems to work pretty well for me, so far. Probably the time to reef is before you get into the next wind range. (Note to self - next time, put in the second reef at 25. My shoulder still hurts from yesterday.)

Main: Windspeed
full 0 - 15
1st reef 15 - 30
2nd reef 25 - 40
trysail 40+ (or stay home and read a book.)

Headsails (currently approximated by roller furling)

Spinnaker 0 - 10
Genoa 135% 5 - 15
Genoa 100% 15 - 20
Working jib (50%) 20 - 35
Storm jib (25%) 35 - 40

note that the jib car needs to go forward when you roll in, or switch to smaller headsail.

 

[p.gazibara]

I spent quite a bit of time sailing so far this summer on Cinderella, and while my rig is a bit different, the process is nearly the same. From what I have read, overlapping sails eventually produce more heel than forward drive, In light winds, you want a bit of heel to use gravity to keep the sails open and utilize even the smallest puffs of air, an overlapping sail is nice here. It will also help increase the waterline length as the wind builds and allow for a faster theoretical hull speed. I believe Ericsons were designed to be great light wind boats for southern California, that translates to tenderness as the wind builds (that whole compromise thing).
The following I have found to be true while sailing to windward, it is all we seem to do here in the Puget Sound. In general, more sail can be carried downwind as the apparent wind on the sail is going to be about 6kts or so less.

After the wind exceeds about 12kts I have found that going to a smaller headsail will actually keep the boat moving faster and heeled less.
You can also play with traveling up the main and sheeting it to the centerline of the boat. This will in effect stall the front of the main and work the back of the sail keeping the boat flatter. Make sure to use the vang to keep the aft edge of the sail presented properly to the wind. Many of the J boats do this as their boats don't do as well heeled as ours.
If you have a cunningham our outhaul, this is an excellent tool for reducing draft in your main and reducing heel as well.
If you have a backstay tensioner, you can also tension the backstay to flatten the top of the main and reduce the draft and therefore heel. You will also be tightening up the jibstay and moving Jib draft forward also helping reduce heel.

As the wind builds rolling in the jib or changing it is the best course of action to reduce heel. Excessive draft in the main will also give the same effect and lead to weather helm (boat trying to pull you into the wind). The mainsail will allow the boat to point higher than the jib, so going to windward, you will want it flying in some regard (reefed or not) to keep the boat driving. The trick is matching the sail area from both sails.

In general, this is what I look for on our E-35 Cinderella.

0-12 kts full sails, main & number 1 jib about 150%. As the wind nears the 12 mark, if I'm close hauled I will tighten the cunningham to suck in some draft from the main to keep her more upright.
12-18ish kts headsail change #3 or about 100% jib, hopefully one day I will have the furler installed and this will consist of rolling in some jib. Again as the wind builds pull in on the cunningham to reduce main draft and keep the boat more upright and adding backstay tension to keep draft in correct location in mainsail and jib.
18-25ish kts reef #1 in main still flying 100% jib
25-30ish kts reef #2 in main still flying 100% jib.
30-40ish kts drop 100% jib and go to storm jib and 2 reefs in the main if sailing to windward probably wishing I had a 3rd reef, if running probably time to drop the main. The seas here in the sound would be about 10-12ft and accidental jibes are no fun.
40-? kts not sure, haven't sailed in it. I imagine if downwind sailing this is the time to drop all main and fly under storm jib alone. If the boat is going to fast, time to throw things off the stern tied to a line. If the plan is to sail upwind a third reef would be nice to keep the keel building lift and the boat driving forward. Since I don't have a third reef, I would probably be putting up my trisail then going below to change my baselayer...

*Disclaimer*
I have never taken any sailing classes. I am self taught mostly from books and sailing. I do get on a few raceboats here and there and observe what the skippers will do, but the vast majority of my sailing in big wind is aboard Cinderella. I was fortunate to have a fun crew that was willing to push the boat and race Swiftsure this year, during the delivery we saw what we later found out was 40kts from US border patrol (our anemometer began to stall at about 35kts). I am happy to say that we were still making 5-6kts close hauled in that breeze. It is a testament to the design of the E boats. There is no way I could have gotten my old Newport to do anything like that.

-P

 

[G Kiba]

Juice,
I didn't read all the replies you got. But the ones I did failed to mention that you did the exact right thing (that is in my opinion - and maybe unintentionally)... you sailed downwind that is. If your intended direction is downwind you may be able to avoid putting in a reef for a while; and it sounds like that was also the direction of shelter. Putting in a reef can be difficult if you are shorthanded and not setup to do so. Don't forget you need to turn into the wind or "heave too" just to put the reef in. So doing it early is prudent. And you know from this experience that it is not easy to predict

Single line reefing works well on small boats. Regardless of what people keep telling me! I do it all from the cockpit in minutes if not seconds. If your passengers are at all nervous - being able to put in a reef quickly without dancing on the deck is a relief and confidence builder. Panic, confusion and fear usually means they are not coming back. Then you will have no choice but to learn how to singlehand or quit sailing.

If you need some info on setting up a reef system, private message me.

 

[G Kiba]

Just read a few more replies...
If you have the ability to put a reef in quickly, you can reef or un-reef whenever you want for the comfort of your guests and yourself. Why a play a numbers game?

BTW, the time when to reef depends on... the size and model boat, the condition of your sails, where you are sailing (location and conditions), where you are going (destination upwind, downwind), your ability to trim, your experience sailing in high winds, and probably a few more things I haven't thought of. You can hedge out much of this just by having the ability to put a reef in anytime you like.

 

[Christian Williams]

It is worth some practice reefing on any boat. FYI, you should not have to let sails luff to reef, or to head upwind. If you think about it, such a requirement would makr reefing in strong conditions impractical--which is just when you need to be able to reef.

Practice is necessary in different conditions because each boat is set up its own way, with its own eccentricities. Reefing in 5 knots is not as educational as in 20 knots, which is more realistic and will reveal fouls and chafe and winch issues that can be fixed or at least worked around.

No procedure on a boat benefits so much from practice as reefing. It takes a while to get the lines straight, figure out kinks, learn the don'ts, perfect the sequence nd the result is full confidence in your ability to sail through anything and if necessry wind up with bare poles, all without incident or doubt.

What's more, reefing gives you something to do on casual days. It's fun and crew or guests will be interested. With a few tweaks to the system, it will no longer hurt your hands, create fouls or loom as a chore or worry. When its blowing 20 you can still take grandma out, or 4-year-olds, because you will have a boat that behaves in windy conditions pretty much as it behaves in 10 knots.

There's nothing that gives confidence and a thoroughly relaxed perspective on the responsibilities of skippering than knowing you can reef, unassisted, whenever you feel like it.

On many, perhaps most boats, the entire reef system is untried, original, and worn out. It is the prime cause of uncertainty, panic and a nagging sense of uncertainty should the weather change.

 

[907Juice]

Thanks for the awesome replies! We are going out tomorrow and reefing a few times is on the agenda. I'll definitely keep the sails and knots screenshot and handy but it'll be a while before we get new sails and/or rigging. Older, smaller boat and original rigging makes everything manual. Everything is done at the mast with a hank on jib and all. We are still fair weather sailors and don't go out with more predicted winds than 10-15. We mainly go out on day trips and anchor up for lunch and shore play. That way can still have fun and easily learn new things while returning to the harbor every night.

Knowing the boat boat is stronger than we are helps but it is still a bit scary when you dip a rail for the first time. So yeah the comment about 3rd reef or stay home will absolutely be the latter!

And thanks for the atta boy about downwind, but it was purely happenstance. The evening wind almost always blows us back to harbor. It is a nice treat and you make pretty good time home.

I don't have any way to measure the angle but I'm guessing it is around 15* when it sets up. The Lee rail is getting close to the water and you're mostly bracing yourself with your feet on the seats on the opposite side of the cockpit or you'll slide off. Maybe I'm wrong about the angle but she seems comfy there and squats down.
Juice

 

[907Juice]

Not easy!

Ok, we went out yesterday and put a reef in and it was a bit of a pill. First problem was the cars stacked up on the mast didn't give me a good way to attach the clew of the mainsail. I ended up sliding them off the bottom so I could attach it, which worked decent once i figured it out. It would've been a chore to shake out if we decided to shake it out. Since then I've searched the interwebs and found a WAY BETTER way! I think I'm going to make a couple of the first picture for first and second reefs. Second problem was with the tack. I found a pic that best describes my situation that I'll attach below. Should've I tightened my boom topping lift to support the foot of the sail? As I said earlier, there is almost no aftermarket rigging to make it easier so I'm starting from scratch. Thanks again for the help and sometimes writing it all down helps me to problem solve better. I've already come up with some things to do different. Maybe one of the other 25+ers here can offer a better solution.

 

[p.gazibara]

If you are going to add a pendant to your sail to clip your new tack to the boom, I would recommend making t out of a length of dyneema instead of wire, the chafe from wire would not be good.

As for the new clew of the sail, it should come out of the end of the boom, through the clew, and be tied to your boom. If you do what the photo suggests, the force required to shape the sail is huge.

You shouldnt need a toping lift to help you out unless you don't have a rigid vang. Just make sure to ease the main sheet before putting he reef in.

-P

 

[toddster]

I think what you're suggesting is a reefing strop which is made from webbing and a couple of rigging rings.

An easier (though maybe less secure?) way to get started is rig a pennant as Christian suggested. Fasten one end of a line near the gooseneck on the off side, up through the cringle, and back down to the mast at the level of the boom. Simply haul down on this pennant (rope) to bring the new tack down and cleat it off.