First Time Spinnaker Setup on 35-2

[Farlander]

Maybe the wrong category but I'm looking for instant gratification!

I have just come into possession (for free) of a used spinnaker and pole (they both came from two different boats). The pole is about 15' long and the symmetrical spinnaker is 50' luff by 34' foot. I have a 1 1/4" track on front of the mast, and plan to install a sliding car with a pole ring (with a locking pin AND bails to rig for hoisting).

I plan to use the nose down method of gybing the pole since one of the release cable is almost full length on one end, but only about a foot long on the mast end.

There is no bridle (yet).

I have a mast head halyard for the spinnaker, and a mid-mast sheave for the topping lift. For now, I plan to run the topping lift to the pole end.

I plan to run 2 sheets (sheet + guy) to some stern blocks and turn them to the secondary or primary winches.

Big question is what are people doing for down haul on these boats? Tweakers and no down haul? Foreguy attached to block in center of foredeck? I was considering stanchion mounted blocks, and one continuous loop of line that would run through the pole end and back to cam cleats already mounted on the side of the cabin top.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Farlander]

 

[supersailor]

The spinnaker and pole are both oversize and need to be cut down some before use. Your j is 14' and your pole should be the same. Your I is 43 indicating the chute should be dragging in the water in lighter air. Perhaps a look at the chute by a sailmaker would be appropriate before setting. I don't see a topping lift or a spinnaker guy on the foredeck. Setting a chute without them would be a disaster.

Chutes are great fun but they can become a nightmare if mishandled. Be sure to have an experienced hand present for the first set. Good luck and have fun.

 

[Farlander]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the advice.

I measured the sail with arm lengths so I'm not sure the exact luff edge, could be anywhere from 46' to 50'.

I did talk to my sail maker and they also indicated that shortening the sail may be necessary, as well as shortening the pole.

I have a mid-mast topping lift with a pull rope already in place, all I have to do is run some new line through there and boom, topping lift done.

The big question again is how do people rig the pole downhaul / foreguy? I could install a block in my mid foredeck but I'm trying to avoid drilling holes in the boat.

The forestay head fixture has some pre drilled holes in it, which could be suitable for attaching a block, but I'm not sure if the angle is good, since it seems like the downhaul would rub on the pulpit in some pole positions.

Regarding the turning blocks at the stern for the spinn sheets, I have ordered some stand up blocks, but now I'm thinking maybe I should have gone with the larger wider blocks?

Anyone who can describe their symmetric spin setup to me would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Christian Williams]

Bob is right on, in my opinion.

But since you're just getting into the world of sym spinnakers, why not give it a try before spending money.

The spinnaker sheets need to connect somewhere at the (far) back of the boat, then go to the genoa winches. Some kinda block. Some kinda line (light line for light air, heavier for heavy air).

The downhaul you can put on a bow cleat for the moment and see how it goes. You do always need a downhaul, because if the pole skies it is embarrassing, and if you're using a ring fitting on the mast that will probably break it.

Try your gear out in 6 knots of wind. Set it and douse it. Trim it and see how the boat responds. Be paranoid about fouls. Don't jibe the chute yet. Avoid whitecaps.

The technique stuff is all over YouTube. It will only really make sense after you screw things up a few times.

By the way, a spinnaker requires an alert helmsman--probably you. So rehearse the crew, they'll have to pull the strings.

 

[e38 owner]

If you plan to do dip pole jibes your mast ring will need blocks etc. you will need to raise the pole higher than you can reach so it will clear the forestry. Run the track from deck level to high enough You can still use an oversized pole if you don’t race. If you do it would a rating hit that may or may not be worth it. A longer pole is faster because it gets the chute away from the main

It side will need two blocks. Snatch blocks attached to the track cars are best. Snatch block are no longer cheap. Garahauaer may have what you need. They have track and cars.

Sheets are important also. I like 5/16 low stretch line long enough to looped through the shackle. Such that you will not need to splice the line just loop the center with a luggage tag not. Each pair must be long enough

The guy block should be midship. The other about 5 feet from the stern

 

[supersailor]

I set many chutes on 26-27 foot boats. In fact I used to singlehand the chute on my last 26 footer. The first time I set the chute on Terra Nova, the reaction was "Holy Sh** we got it up, how are we going to get that thing back down?" It is massive compared to the toy size chute the 26 carries. We also jumped from 2.4 knots under main and 130 to 5.3 knots. The pulling power is awesome. The chute will easily drag you up to hull speed in less than 6kn of wind. The pole can be left at 15' for the first set but It probably can't be dip pole jibed. You can cut the pole down yourself. The most important thing here is that the chute not drag in the water. If it does, it is hard to retrieve. The dimensions you gave are close to the 34-2 chute dimensions and large for the 35-2.

Christian has the right idea for the first set but I would make it in no wind at all. You didn't mention the weight of the chute but the drifter on Terra Nova is 1/2oz and the triradial is 1 1/2oz. The weight is important as that lets you know what winds you can carry the chute in. 1/2oz = 6kn max. 1 1/2oz = capsize the boat. The first ever I set a chute on a 26, the spinnaker pole slapped up against the mast because I forgot to secure the pole downhaul. No harm done but it did scare me half to death. Do not attempt to set the chute unless that line is rigged!

There are many good videos out there on youtube on how to handle the spinnaker and it might be good to look at a crash and burn video to see what happens if you get too carried away with fun. Don't let these intimidate you. Just be aware of what can happen.


Because I sail many times shorthanded and still love the chute, I put the Triradial in an ATN sleeve. I now cheat when dumping the chute; The 1/2oz drifter is still free handed. It should never be up in more than 6kn of wind.

 

[Farlander]

Downhaul bridle or not?

Thanks for all the great info guys!

I have a forward facing mast track that goes about 12 feet up the mast.

I ordered the Forespar RC-125 ring car, which has a screw pin as well as shackle attachment points, so I can fix it in place, OR rig up a hoisting system.

The pole WILL clear the forestay and pulpit if the mast end of the pole is at least 10 feet up the track, so it looks like if I want to use this pole for nose down gybe method, I will have to rig up a hoisting system. Potential issue: will the pole bind on the ring with the pole jaws facing up at that extreme angle? (about 45 degrees)

For hoisting up the mast track, I'm looking for a used 1 1/4 inch track car that has an integrated block, like this ( https://www.atlanticriggingsupply.com/scjireblbali.html ) but in lieu of that I guess I can just use a standard track car with an eye and attach a snatch block onto it. Since I'm in the money spending phase now, I'm trying to make sure I purchase components that will function compatibly.

The spinnaker is a 1.5 oz. Thanks for the warning about potential capsize, I really had not thought of that!

To simplify the pole downhaul rigging, should I install a bridle on the underside of pole? Otherwise, I foresee a lot of interference with the pulpit and problems gybing. I cannot fathom a way to rig a downhaul to the end of the pole end that does not interfere with the pulpit....

Ideally I would like to run the pole downhaul line to both sides of the boat, to cam cleats already mounted on both sides of cabin top, approx. even with the companionway.

Last question, do I really need a sheet and a guy on both sides for the symmetrical kite? Can I get away with just a pair of sheets?

Thanks,

 

[bgary]

Potential issue: will the pole bind on the ring with the pole jaws facing up at that extreme angle?

It shouldn't. If it does, the ring is too small for the pole-end

To simplify the pole downhaul rigging, should I install a bridle on the underside of pole?

You could, but that introduces a different set of complexities... starting with the challenge of mounting the foreguy block in the middle of the foredeck. Also, having the foreguy block all the way forward really helps the foredeck person in doing the dip-pole gibe (it gives him/her a way to pull the pole-end forward after it is released from the sail). If the foreguy block is farther aft, as it would normally be to work with a bridle, it makes the foredeck person's job harder.

Otherwise, I foresee a lot of interference with the pulpit and problems gybing.

It shouldn't. You can try it at the dock to see. When the pole is near the headstay, that foreguy line will be pretty much straight up and down. When the pole is squared all the way aft, it should be no issue. There aren't too many angles in between where the foreguy will interfere with the lifelines or pulpit in any significant way when the pole is at the right height.

I would like to run the pole downhaul line to both sides of the boat

Not a bad idea. Effectively that gives you a 2:1 purchase for the foreguy. Just be sure that you size those cam-cleats appropriately (the foreguy can have a fair amount of load), and make sure you can also lead the foreguy line to a winch, if you need to.

do I really need a sheet and a guy on both sides for the symmetrical kite?

Generally yes (*). The way the dip-pole gibe works is that the sheets control the sail while the pole is tripped from the old afterguy, the pole is swung through the foretriangle, the new ("lazy") afterguy is clipped into the pole-end on the new windward side, and the pole tip is raised in position. Very difficult (and inefficient) to do a dip-pole gibe in any sort of breeze without both sheets and guys.

(*) It is quite common, though, to unclip the "lazy" guy from the clew (for example, unclip the starboard guy from the sail while on port gibe) on longer legs in order to keep the un-used guyfrom weighing down the sail in marginal conditions. It's also not uncommon to use sheets-only in very light wind.

$.02
Bruce

 

[Christian Williams]

Why do you need a dip-pole jibe? The gear to move the specialty car up and down the mast is very expensive, and the proper fitting is a socket, and it;s not easy to retrofit to an old pole. This whole project gets expensive fast--price snatch blocks, f'instance.

For starters at least you can just manually wrestle the pole from jibe to jibe using a simple fixed ring on the mast, like small boats do.

Just opinion, of course.

 

[supersailor]

Christian. I invite you to attempt to wrassle this 15' pole on this boat when both ends are loose and the chute is attached. A dip pole looks dooable at that point. There's a reason the foredeck guys are called foredeck apes. Unfortunately, I am no longer one of those.

 

[Farlander]

Hi Everyone,
I wanted to share my spinnaker success.

The rig was designed as follows...
Foreguy/downhaul:
2 stanchion mounted blocks attached to the bow pulpit (turns out only one was needed)
Another block connected to a ring suspended by a bridal to the pole
60' of 5/16" line
The foreguy runs from bow pulpit > pole bridle > bow pulpit > block on t-track at midships > cam cleat side of cabin top

Topping lift:
45' of 5/16" line connected to ring on a second pole bridal, this ring set biased a little more forward on the pole

Sheets/guys:
One pair of sheets, run to aft blocks on t-track (stand up blocks were used at first, but it turns out, loose blocks are better for this sharp turning angle)

Spinnaker pole hoisting system at mast:
Ring car with bails and set screw (for hoisting car and/or fixing in place)
Jiffy reef blocks (one with attached cam cleat) for easy hoisting the pole car up the mast to perform dip pole gybe.

I've flown the spinnaker several times and the system works great. Thanks to all the advice from people on here.

 

[Mr. Scarlett]

why not give it a try before spending money.

I did exactly this recently. The boat came with a pole and I was given a spinnaker off of a Beneteau Figaro. Both boats have a similar I P and E. His J is ~3 feet less than my 35-2 which makes the foot too short - anywhere from 2 - 6 feet depending on whose math we're using.
The deck is set up for dip pole, and gybing went well on both days.
I could use some advice regarding pole height. Over two days I kept moving the pole higher and higher, until it was about 10 feet above deck. Higher seemed to be better, but since I'm new to this, I really can't say. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
I = 42' SL = 39'
J = 14' SMW = 21'

 

[G Kiba]

From what I understand and do, The clew height should be kept equal on both sides. The height varies on wind conditions and the sail trim for course you want (beam of run) and likely vary from boat to boat. I angle the kite higher in light winds when going DDW (dead downwind) but have seen some boats do this in very high winds like Moore 24's will angle so high it looks like they re trying lift the bow out of the water. My guess it also depends on wether you are racing of crusing.

 

[Christian Williams]

Keep the pole horizontal. Change its height with the track on the mast. Keep it square to the wind.

Higher pole opens the top of the chute, lower tightens the luff, for upwind work. Clews level.

Symmetrical spinnakers are often overtrimmed, ease the sheet.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

I did foredeck for years on an old 34' IOR boat. Adding to the previous excellent advice, my recollection* is that we'd bring the pole down if we got closer to the wind, further up as we went downwind. The skipper also had a symm chute cut somewhat flatter. If the leg were closer to beam we'd run that. We'd bring the pole all the way down to the bow pulpit, maintaining horizontal, tho.
*I forget this stuff quickly and have to relearn when I get back at it. I've been foredeck on a J/105 lately.

 

[Mr. Scarlett]

Keep the pole horizontal. Change its height with the track on the mast. Keep it square to the wind.

Higher pole opens the top of the chute, lower tightens the luff, for upwind work. Clews level.

Symmetrical spinnakers are often overtrimmed, ease the sheet.

I know about clews at equal heights, and pole orientation WRT the mast andwind direction.

I was not aware of what pole height achieved.

At first I blamed the short foot for why the sheet was always on the forestay, but now believe overtrimming was the main cause.

Pics below of different pole heights.

Still very exciting, even with very light winds I could immediately feel the pull un the boat. Once I start to use it in stronger breeze the dodger will have to go for a safer douse - a sight I'm looking forward to.

Thank you.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

I found this old photo of the Peterson 34 on which I learned to sail. This is the flatter symmetrical spinnaker we called our 'reaching chute'. Yeah, we broached sometimes, but we learned a lot, no one got hurt, and it was fun.

 

[G Kiba]

I found this old photo of the Peterson 34 on which I learned to sail. This is the flatter symmetrical spinnaker we called our 'reaching chute'. Yeah, we broached sometimes, but we learned a lot, no one got hurt, and it was fun.

View attachment 44204

Jeff,
I know of a couple who cruised a lot to Hawaii and the South Pacific. They bought a Pearson 34 and outfitted it to possibly circumnavigate ($$$). On a shake down sail to Hawaii, they discovered that the 34 was a horrible downwind boat. From what I understand, the discovery was very difficult for the husband to accept (they tried everthing they could to remedy the problem). They sold the boat and he ended up with a Wilderness 40 that he singlehaned back to the SF Bay from the PNW. I think of this heartbreak every time I see or hear about a Pearson 34.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Jeff,
I know of a couple who cruised a lot to Hawaii and the South Pacific. They bought a Pearson 34 and outfitted it to possibly circumnavigate ($$$). On a shake down sail to Hawaii, they discovered that the 34 was a horrible downwind boat. From what I understand, the discovery was very difficult for the husband to accept (they tried everthing they could to remedy the problem). They sold the boat and he ended up with a Wilderness 40 that he singlehaned back to the SF Bay from the PNW. I think of this heartbreak every time I see or hear about a Pearson 34.

That would be tough to deal with Grant. I have even more empathy after our first year of working on our boat.
The boat I crewed on (pictured) was a Peterson, not a Pearson. It's common for people to mistake them. That said, the design is the result of IOR rules so it was definitely squirrely downwind. Our skipper, my sailing mentor, is amazing at boat handling and we had a long string of success in the local beer-can races.

The blooper helped some to stabilize it, but didn't add much speed. We only flew this a few times. Great fun to mess around with.