38-200 Keel Bolts

[celtium]

Does anyone have a way to access 38-200 keel bolts in the galley area other than 'standing on your head'?

I am having an issue that is showing a crack between the keel partner/stem and the keel at the back of the keel. At this point, we feel it's lose keel bolts that were not properly torqued 3 years ago by workers at a boat yard.

Now I know it's very difficult to get to them below the galley in particular, so I was wondering if anyone had 'solved' this problem? For instance, I'm wondering if there is a way to cut a new access in the cabin sole or something of that nature. I can only imagine a yard worker at 3p on a Friday saying 'screw it' and get it a little more than finger tight and calling it a day, arghhhhhh:headb:!

BTW, thank you to the guys who brained stormed with me earlier in the week, it was MOST helpful...thank you.

Jay
Celtica, SF Bay

 

[u079721]

Well it wasn't easy, but if you first remove all the drawers you can then get to the nuts with a breaker bar with a universal swivel - and standing on your head too probably. I ended up cutting a couple of lengths of pipe to go over the breaker bar that were short enough to fit under the galley and still give me some added leverage on the nuts. I even had the keel dropped and re-bedded, without cutting into the cabinets, so I know it can be done!

 

[celtium]

Thanks

That's why I think the other yard didn't torque the bolts. I can't prove it, not do I think I have a claim...

That being said, I was looking at a picture of a Pacific Seacraft 38 on Yachtworld. There is a hatch in the cabin sole adjacent to the galley. I wonder if that's how PS solved the problem? Maybe I need to have the yard cut on the same access hatch?

Thoughts?

Thanks -

Jay
Celtica, SF Bay

 

[u079721]

Well you can cut away if you want, but believe me you don't have to. I routinely tightened all of the bolts myself on my very own E38-200 with just a breaker bar, universal joint, and short cheater bar. It is a pain, but it can be done.

 

[celtium]

You are correct

What you described is exactly what my yard manager said. He pulled teh two drawers out and said the same thing. The cabinet end is exactly in line with the bolt I guess, thus the 'issue'.

Question, how often did you tighten your bolts? My bet is most people never do?

Thanks again - Jay

 

[u079721]

What you described is exactly what my yard manager said. He pulled teh two drawers out and said the same thing. The cabinet end is exactly in line with the bolt I guess, thus the 'issue'.

Question, how often did you tighten your bolts? My bet is most people never do?

Thanks again - Jay

My impression is that trying to tighten the nuts on keel bolts in futile unless the boat is on the hard. So I just did it every spring as part of commissioning before launch. If you went through a hell of a blow it might be worth checking, but again I don't know if you really can tighten them under load.

 

[celtium]

Makes sense

Hey Steve,

That make sense...but I only need to haul every 2 - 3 years. I should ask my diver if he noticed anything, and to keep an eye on it.

Here's an interesting question, when you torqued them yearly, did you find that they were loose or had loosened and if so how much?

Thanks again - Jay

 

[u079721]

Hey Steve,

That make sense...but I only need to haul every 2 - 3 years. I should ask my diver if he noticed anything, and to keep an eye on it.

Here's an interesting question, when you torqued them yearly, did you find that they were loose or had loosened and if so how much?

Thanks again - Jay

They don't typically loosen at all. Every spring when I tested mine the most I ever got was a couple of inches on the end of the cheater bar, which probably translates into something like 1/32nd to 1/64th of a revolution. I would be concerned if you found more than that, as it might suggest to me that something is compressing with time.

 

[Joliba]

E38-200 keelbolts

Jay,
What year is your 38-200. We have a 1988, built in late 1987 by Ericson. We bought the boat 3 years ago. We had that crack especially at the after end of the keel. We pulled the keel off and found (as have several others on this forum) that there was still gelcoat releaser wax on the keel root, meaning that the keel never bonded to the hull with the 3M 4200 or whatever was originally used. We retightened the keelbolts further a year later. We do the same thing as Steve to reach beneath the galley to tighten the bolts. We have not modified the floor, either. It works.
Mike

 

[Frank Langer]

Mike,

Were you concerned at all about water getting into the keel/hull joint and possibly corroding the keel bolts, especially if the wax release/caulking failure and crack at the aft end of the keel have been an issue since it was built? Did the keel bolts show corrosion when you dropped the keel?

Frank

 

[Joliba]

Keel bolts

Our boat had been in salt water for 20 years, and now is a fresh water boat. Yes, we were quite concerned about corroded keelboats. Interstingly, what we found was that water had leaked all the way into the bilge. The washers were completely corroded and crumbling, but the bolts and nuts themselves were pristine. Apparently, the washers were of a stainless steel of slightly different nobility and they had acted as sacrificial anodes. Now, in the fresh water everything looks shiny and new with no sign of any rust in the bilge. The small crack at the aft end of the keel/hull junction is apparently endemic in 38-200s. Regular bolt tightening is a good idea, but dropping and rebedding the keel should be done once, if it has not already been, in any of the boats built during that period of manufacturing error.Mike Jacker

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks for this very helpful information, Mike.
Frank

 

[celtium]

Torque

I think my issue is totally lack of torque by the yard that did the work 3 years ago. I had the keel dropped, cleaned, rebedded and wrapped in 4 layers of glass. It should not have moved. I think the yard simply didn't torque the bolts enough.

The yard it's in now has not come up with a verdict as they haven't gotten to the part yet. That's just my guess.

Jay
1989 E 38-200
SF Bay

 

[u079721]

I plum forgot to comment on the issue of having the back few inches of the E38 keel separate from the hull. We had that really bad on our 38 when we bought her, along with water coming in. I looked into it and also found that this problem was pretty common to 38s, and that the aft keel bolt was not really able to hold the keel up adequately, regardless of how well the bolt it tightened. And that's why when we had the keel re-bedded we went with epoxy. I was assured that the epoxy would help hold the after edge of the keel in place, and it did - never separated again.

 

[celtium]

Epoxy?

Hi Steve,

Did they epoxy the entire length of the keel?

I think the yard that rebedded my keel used 5200 which I thought would be overkill. The yard manager at my current yard wants to use a more flexible sealant that will flex with movement rather than separate like 5200 if there is any movement.

So your solution adds a new fly into the ointment. Current thought is to figure a way to 'squirt' sealant or 'epoxy'(?) into the aft crack without dropping the entire keel and then tighten it up with proper torque.

Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Jay
Celtica 38-200
SF Bay

 

[Joliba]

Our yard used 4200. The flexibility and the possibility of repeating the repair in the future if there is ever grounding damage made sense to me.

 

[celtium]

Conventional wisdom indeed...

That seems to be what is said by yard folks as well. The yard that used the 5200 basically said the same thing except it was more work to get the keel off. When they dropped mine originally I think it was 5200 as they had to use a sawzall to get it off.

That's why when Steve said epoxy, I commented the new 'fly in the ointment' scenario. But with my 'problem' it's worth considering...

Jay

 

[u079721]

My understanding after I looked into the aft keel edge issue was that the aft bolt was simply not correctly positioned to be able to compensate for the natural subsidence of the hull. Put another way, the bolt itself can not hold up the aft keel edge, you need adhesion as well. So the recommendations I got were for 5200 or epoxy - and since my yard was one mile from the West System Epoxy plant, most of the boats in our area were bedded with epoxy. The issue of future removal for repair did concern me, but everyone says don't worry, it ain't ever coming loose, so no repair would ever be needed. Think I might feel differently in salt water, but in fresh it seemed to make sense. The yard (and West) said that after the keel was bedded with epoxy you didn't even need the bolts - though I would rather not put that theory to the test!

 

[Rick R.]

Crack, It's a Bad Thing

When we haulded our 32-200 for the survey back in March, we found a 2" crack at the keel/stub join. I'm having the boat hauled for a bottom job in January. Maybe we need to look at the keel bolts too?

 

[Joliba]

Boats on Crack

Is the crack 2 inches wide or long? A narrow two inch long crack is probably not significant if there is nothing else to suggest a leak . It is more likely a paint crack. If the keel is truly separating, a longer crack would appear and it would likely be on both sides of the boat. If you walk through a boat yard, you may notice many boats with a small crack at the keel hull junction. A trail of rust at the crack would be a bad sign.