E35 structural issues... help!

[Chip]

The bulkhead aft of the head has twice come untabbed on my 89 E35. the first time was attributed to soggy and flexing deck core under the dorade box. The box was removed, deck recored, and a laminated beam placed under the deck just forward of the mast. Sadly this expensive fix didn't seem to address the problem. Does anyone have any other suggestions? The bulkhead is loose again and I' m concerned the issue may have to do with the grid pan attachment to the hull. I will more quickly return a phone call than an email, 434 293 6147 or 434 960 6946 cwk39@hotmail.com

 

[Sean Engle]

Is it the top that's become untagged - or the bottom? From your description, I'm assuming the top...

I would cut the old tab, grind it out, and re-tab it ASAP. Luckly it's winter, so your schedule should be open for such a mess (I would remove nearly everything from the boat - all the cloth stuff, especially).

What makes you think the damage has anything to do with the grid?

Do you have any photos of the box removal, etc you could share with us?

//sse

 

[Chip]

Sean, thanks for responding. Unfortunately the untabbing is occurring at the bottom of the bulkhead. At first we thought it was due to the deck flexing from the saturated core and the absence of a complete support beam attached to the underside of the deck. It simply stopped somewhere above the toilet. So it looked like maybe the hull was thus allowed to flex excessively and allow the bulkhead to be pushed up.(this is all to port of the keel.) The head door lifts so it won't close, and the first go around, the forward section of the dinette settee shifted aft such that the table refused to drop in. After the repairs mentioned, the bottom of the bulkhead became untabbed in a very few hours of light to moderate sailing. Upward chainplate pressure is the force at work here.The port shrouds have a tendancy to slacken easily which I believe is related. There are no apparent cracks at the maststep, but I'm concerned about movement in that realm. Overall, I'm really trying to diagnose the problem.

 

[Steve]

Sounds like water is the issue

Assume an 89 35 is the classic 35-3 with the head to port just at and forward of the mast.

Before I sealed my shower pan I noticed a crazy joint between the pan and the bulkhead which was not self draining and needed some serious filling and sealing to maintain water integrity in the shower area. Is this the bulk head your referring to that separates the v-berth portside and the shower or is it the bulkhead between the head and the waste tank. I could see that one after many years of leaking high acid waste in the lower areas it could destroy bonding in this area too…

Steve e35-3 #156

 

[Chip]

aft head bulkhead

The problem is at the base of the bulkhead between the head and the holding tank. I'm not sure what you're referring to with "years of high acid waste" in this area. The holding tank never leaked. There is a hose to the holding tank going through the bulkhead. The movement appears to be from flexing of the hull under or outboard of the bulkhead. I mentioned that it was repaired last year, only to come loose again in a matter of hours.

P>S> I forgot to mention that, indeed, I also have a funky joint at the base of the shower pan aft of the v-berth. I've only glopped it with caulk once, but it does occaisionally leak through to the v-berth side.

 

[Sean Engle]

Huh - perhaps since you had deck issues from the dorade box (very common problem on E35-3 - I totally sealed mine up with teak to kill the leaks) some of that moisture ran down to the bulkhead and then got down to the tabbing below.

As much as I'm sure you don't want to hear this - once you ensure that that is the source of this issue - my instinct would be to tear it apart - all of it - and regrind and tab the bulkhead again (and/or replacing the bulkhead itself if necessary). I would also (while your're at it) open up the rest of the areas near that bulkhead to ensure that nothing else has been damaged.

That bulkhead has termination points on it for some of the shrouds - so it's under pressure - so it's no surprise that the beam reinforcement you mention came apart after some amount of flexing - the actual source of the problem was not solved; that the flexing was not coming from the area you looked it (wrong target).

Do you have a camera? How about some pictures? Have you checked the tabbing at the base of that bulkhead yet? What about the other bulkheads?

The dorade box on the Ericsons has been a pain in the butt to all of us. It's too bad that the damage you've experienced has gone (apparently) beyond the normal staining/teak rotting/deck core damage that most of us see. You might also want to check the deck fittings for the waste pump out to ensure it's not leaking down in there (although I'm sure you would notice that, obviously).

As far as the hull/grid connection - I'm not sure what to say there. I don't have the knowledge about how that is connected to be able to make a comment - perhaps one of the other owners might?

Take some pictures (but keep the size to 800x600, please...) and post them up here, ok - I'm interested to see what the deal is...

//sse

 

[Chip]

Sean, good observations. I don't have ready access to the boat with my camera. (She's 2 hours away and I'm busy with work right now.) I'm, sadly, a somewhat of a long distance sailor. I live at the edge of the mountains in Virginia, and sail on the Chesapeake Bay.
The new laminated beam installed last year under the deck hasn't, to my knowledge, come apart. It was installed to stop deck flexing which we thought was the force breaking loose the tabbing at the bulkhead bottom. We did not note any loose tabbing at the bulkhead deck joint, but found plenty at the bulkhead hull joint. (I'd need to loook again to be sure it's not attached to the glassed-in grid.) So the boatyard who did the repair didn't think there was water intrusion from the dorade debacle beyond the deck coring (which they replaced with balsa, rather than the original plywood). We didn't look for the nightmare that the bulkhead might be rotting away from water above. Also I think they would've noticed water damage when they ground away the old tabbing at the bulkhead bottom.
Now they are suggesting that the real culprit is hull flexing and that the problem might be in the grid. Your and Steve's thoughts towards triple checking for water damage are valid.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

I doubt that the TFG could come loose. If you look at the photo in the "Glued Down Cabin Sole" thread you will see how the TFG is glassed to the hull in various places throughout the boat. Moreover, I read somewhere that Ericson also used epoxy between the TFG and the hull. I can see it in the limber holes in the bilge.

Also, I am not quite sure what is meant by "tabbing". On my 32-3, which is the same construction as your boat (the big difference being that all six of my shrouds are terminated in the TFG; none are attached to wood bulkheads), the bulkheads are mechanically fastened to the TFG using large diameter (lag, I assume) bolts. The lower part of my aft head bulkhead does show water staining because of poor sealing in the head and shower water running down the bulkhead. If you have similar construction and the cause of the problem is rot in the lower part of the bulkhead, you might be able to get away with running metal straps from higher up on the bulkhead and bolting them to the TFG.