Lewmar Winch Orientation Issue

[Christian Williams]

I installed a new Lewmar 30ST winch without regard to orientation, and Loren caught the error in my blog entry.

So let's think it through. Do I need still need help situating the winch? Apparently so.

Winches need to be installed so the correct gear takes the load from the handle. Incorrect orientation makes them wear out faster. I received no install document with the winch. Loren provided this Lewmar diagram (I never could find it on the Internet):


Simple enough. Now, is the "Output Gear" on the new winch "A" or "B"?


(Orientation as shown is incorrect.)

The Lewmar diagram seems to show a fairly small gear intersecting the spindle as the "output gear."

Meantime, a Harken install document shows their "Drive Gear" further outboard.



Let's see what Anderson winches has to say:


Anderson/Ronstan identifies the largest gear as the "Output or drive gear."

Their document also tells how to locate it: "To identify the Output Drive Gear, insert a winch handle into the winch and rotate in both directions. The Drive Gear will only rotate clockwise in a fast and slow speed."

Ah, progress! Except...when you perform that test on the Lewmar, it is the largest gear ("Large Gear" in photo) that reveals itself as the all-important Output Gear on which proper orientation depends.

......

And that gear resembles not at all the Output Gear in the Lewmar diagram (first photo in this post).

I'm awaiting clarification from Lewmar. I sent them the "A" and "B" photo asking which one is the Output Gear.

But perhaps one of us can identify an "output gear" by rational analysis of the mechanics. Alas, the gear interactions of a 2-speed winch are 2 speeds beyond me--and others on the Internet equally confused bout Lewmar winch orientation.

 

[goldenstate]

Is it possible to overthink this issue? Isn't it a round gear made of non-flexible metal?

I'm not an engineer of any kind, but I'm skeptical that the entry point of the line makes much of a difference with a round winch housing that should not deflect at all under the load (100lbs?) that can be applied by a homo sapien with a 14" winch handle.

 

[Kenneth K]

I’m no winch guy, but this would be my guess: It seems to me that the drive (or output) gear would be the one that inter-meshes with the teeth in the drum. The handle turns the drive gear and the drive gear turns the drum. When there’s a lot of force applied to gears, they tend to push apart, as that is one way of resisting the applied force between the two gears. If the winched line contacted the drum on the opposite side from the drive gear (180° opposite from what they recommend), the force from the line would push the drum away from the drive gear, encouraging the gear teeth to lose contact. In this case all the force to keep the drum aligned upright would be on the internal bearings. The winch probably wouldn’t last long in this case.

In the recommended alignment, the drive gear not only provides the force to turn the drum, but it acts as a bearing to maintain drum alignment as well.

 

[Frank Langer]

Hmmm... I wonder how many of us will take apart our winches in coming weeks to check if it was installed correctly in our boat. And if so, I wonder what percentage are correct, or not.
I'm guessing only those of us who are near the end, or have completed, our project list will have the time or the inclination. But then, maybe we have completed our project list cause we work so hard to have everything right on our boat.
Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

OK, with exposure to clarifying forum air my personal fog is dissipating.

I conclude that the Anderson cranking test provides the definitive (and obvious) answer.

It shows that the largest gear--the gear that meshes with the drum--is the only gear which rotates exclusively clockwise. Since a two-speed winch drum turns exclusively clockwise, that gear must therefore be the Drive or Output gear.

Thanks all.

 

[Kenneth K]

It shows that the largest gear--the gear that meshes with the drum--is the only gear which rotates exclusively clockwise. Since a two-speed winch drum turns exclusively clockwise, that gear must therefore be the Drive or Output gear.

Which isn't what we normally expect with gears. Usually, two adjacent gears turn in opposite directions. But here, with one inside the other, they both go clockwise. Maybe it makes more sense if you grew up with a Spirograph set.

Hmm, what's the youtube equivalent of the Spirograph?

 

[Christian Williams]

By the way: The Barient had to be replaced because the mating surface of the drum and spindle was worn, causing the winch to wobble. After my education in the correct orientation vis a vis the output gear, I looked back at the factory orientation of the Barient. It was 90 degrees off. Dunno if that contributed to the wear, but who knows?

 

[Christian Williams]

I received this photo today from Lewmar, who have been responsive to my questions. Clears things up.

 

[Geoff W.]

Well, now I'm not at all concerned about confirming the orientation of my own Barients on Delightful. Not even a little bit, nope.

 

[Kenneth K]

Like Christian said, winches should be inspected and maintained regularly anyway. But if you know the bolt pattern of your winch bases, you can inspect the orientation from under the headliner.

Barient 16 and 17s are "missing" a bolt hole where the drive gear sits. See below (that's a 16 on the left and a 17ST on the right--they use the same base):



On the Barient 10 however the bolt pattern is symmetric so you wouldn't be able to tell orientation from underneath the mounting surface.

 

[Tom Metzger]

By the way: The Barient had to be replaced because the mating surface of the drum and spindle was worn, causing the winch to wobble.

I had this problem on my primaries a couple of years ago so I replaced the main roller bearings. End of problem. Cheaper than new winches.

Ericson factory installed the winches correctly, BTW.

 

[K2MSmith]

We recently disassembled my Barient 25 running backstay winches and found one to have a cracked drum. It will be interesting to see how these were mounted with respect to the output gear alignment with load. They do take a lot of force. I purchased two used Barient 25's from ebay that were taken off a J-35. I just bought two new Lewmar 40's for my cabin top re-rig so I didn't want to break the bank by having to buy two more 45's, right now so the Barients will remain for the runners.

 

[Christian Williams]

Well, the Barient 23ST main halyard winch is installed incorrectly also--If indeed Barient's design has the same needs as more modern configurations (original Barient installation literature doesn't mention orientation at all).

Since I dismounted it for maintenance I guess I'll drill new holes and rotate it. Otherwise I'd shrug it off -- after all, no ill effects for the first 35 years. (Yes, you do have to take these winches off the boat to effectively clean them.)



Barients are famous for not matching the published specs and exploded views. Here's a good video on disassembling my version of the 23ST:

 

[woolamaloo]

Last season, I replaced my two main Barient Genoa winches with self-tailing Lewmars. (WM's buy-one-get-one Spring promotion.) Their configuration was based on how many holes lined up to minimize the number of holes needed redrilling. I never considered that it mattered how the line enters the drum. Oof. I will think of that every time I use the winch under load. I wonder if ignorance isn't better sometimes.