Re-sealing E32-2 Portlights

[John Bouchard]

I hope you all will bear with me... There are many threads on this site on this subject, and I've been involved with them. Also, most of the info gleaned from those threads have been immensely helpful. If this info is way old news, my apologies, and disregard!

I was describing the following to a friend via an email, and once I had it assembled, I figured it might be fodder for discussion on this site...

I've removed all of my portlights, and several of them needed new glass, as fogging has occurred on the 36 year old originals. The "safety glass" is 3/16", thinner than auto glass (I thought about some type of acrylic or plastic - but scratching of this material has always bugged me), and you need to find an installer that stocks this size, and also has access to gasketing material if the original gaskets are brittle/cracked/shrunk/etc. This normally U-shaped gasketing is what seals the glass water-tight in the frame. Along with others, I bought some gasketing material a while back from Gareth on this site (actually, Gareth, I have tried again just recently to determine where to send the money I have owed you for over a year!), who had purchased an excess amount (minimum order) from a dealer.

The principal reason that I post this item is that forever I have seen different sites talking about which caulk to use... such as 3M 5200 (NO!), 4200, 4000, or other. When I bought my 1971 Ericson 32, I originally replaced a couple of the portlights' glass, and used 4200 or the West Marine equivalent around the perimeter interface of the frame and cabin exterior. One of these portlights leaked almost immediately, my bad, and some of the originals have always leaked a little.

A big note of caution here - if using a caulk gun, this is definitely an installation where use of excess caulk is a huge NO -NO! Yes, it might help seal things up better, but in order to remove the portlights later, you need to shift the assembly around a bit to angle it and remove. Any excess caulk inside the exterior of the frame creates a block to this movement, and it must all be dug out/removed before you can manipulate the frame out of the opening. I discovered this faux pas during the recent removal effort.

So, under duress of complaints from the Admiral (read my better half...), I decided to renew the foggy glass and seal the portlights as best as I could learn how. I wasn't sure what caulk to use, which would be the better application, etc. and did do some searching on-line, including much on this site. Answers varied all over the lot - with no real concensus that I could discern.

This site and the manual for the boat indicated a closed-cell foam tape was originally used. I also saw on this site reference from a member who also fixed "rv's" - to a "butyl putty tape."

When I brought the portlights into the shop (in New Bedford, MA - auto place with experience in boat stuff...), I discussed the installation technique with one of the staff (a sailboat owner!) and asked about the original installation - I had kept some of the strips of the original caulking - carefully stripped off the portlight frames. I wondered aloud whether this had been a tape or whatever .... he thought it might have been a bead of caulk or a tape... BUT, he showed me what he would use - it's a "roll" of caulk, much like a roll of tape that is sticky on both sides (like carpet tape...). I guess it is what they use when installing auto glass? This rolled up strip of "caulk" comes in various sizes, widths, and thickness - the exterior "lip" on the "rim" of my portlights is 1/16 deep, and the rim is about 1/2 inch wide. So, the product that I am using is 1/8 inch thick, and 3/8 inch wide.

I never asked him the question - but this may be a roll of butyl putty tape?

One of the beauties of using this stuff is that you can pre-mark the exterior cabin where you want to place the portlight, then fit the tape of caulk on the frame (it is extremely sticky on both sides), and do a pretty good job singlehandedly of just "sticking" it into place!

In applying the stuff to the frame, it is soft and mold-able. Also, you can fix an extra piece or two in the joint between the two halves for extra confidence. Also, there is plenty of "play" to compensate for any small imperfections in the edge of the frame/lip.

The caulk is soft enough so that when you pull it all together from/with the inside frame, the caulk will compress, making for a real nice seal and appearance. The caulk strip is black, so any small amounts that squeeze out will need to be trimmed.

I've attached a picture of a portlight frame, and the "roll" of black caulk, so you can hopefully see what I'm talking about!

BTW, the installer used my gasketing (from Gareth) - they liked it very much and we are trying to identify the original supplier as they would like to purchase some and have it on hand... Gareth, help?

I inquired at the shop about shaded/tinted glass, and they did not stock any that was shaded. So clear glass it is. I'm thinking of maybe using the tinted stick-on material that is available for the interior surface of automobile windows... Does anyone have pros/cons on using this stuff?

Anyway, that's my story and I've got to stick to it! uuhh.. sorry 'bout that... Anyone with comments / suggestions / cautions?

Still snowing a bit around here... but the clock change has made it seem much like Spring!

John B.

 

[gareth harris]

I replied to your PM on the gasket. As for the tape, let us know how it works. My boat originally had a tape, I think more people have had success with tape than with goop.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[Czech Mate]

John:

I'm also having problems with water leakage on my 1975 E32 which I think may be coming from my fixed portlights. I'm not 100% sure of the source though. I see water dripping from the lower portion of the interior frames of both the port and starboard portlights just aft of the bulkhead. However I'm not sure whether the leak point is the portlights or perhaps another source in the upper deck area and the water is simply leaking though the inner portlight frame. I have the leak problem in both rain storms when the boat is sitting in the slip as well as when sailing in heavier weather with a lot of splash on the deck. Any insight?

Now for a few more questions, if I might. How difficult was removal of the original portlights which were not further complicated by the over enthusiastic application of excessive caulk? Did anybody find a source for the gasketing material? The caulk "tape" sounds like an excellent way to go. Have you been able to determine yet if the fix has worked?

Had our last snow last week (hopefully, though you never know what's coming next during spring in Wisconsin) and am really looking forward to our May launch.

Thanks for any ideas or suggestions I get from any of you fellow vikings. \


Bill C.

 

[John Bouchard]

E32 Portlights/removal/resealing

Bill and all:

I haven't found the time to re-install the portlights, and so, no report yet!

Regarding removal - except for the over-gooped ones - it was a breeze! Simply removed the frames on the inside by unscrewing the ss-self-tapping-philips-head screws (be careful not to strip the head it can be a bear if you do - use exact size philips head, and work slowly with a lot of pressure), and then the outside frame will probably just fall out, as the old "tape" is usually dried out and not even stuck to the cabin wall anymore, never mind keeping water out.

When I saw how easy these portlights came loose, there was no question in my mind that this is where the leaks were!

Regarding the leaks, I too did not have a clue... I even tried silicone 'thumbed' on all over various parts of the portlights, and all other fittings, including grab rails. The leaks still persisted. Whenever I left the boat, I left several buckets in places to catch drip water under the little "v's" of silicone bead that I applied under each portlight (this directed the "drips" into a single location beneath each portlight.

Hopefully the "tape" job(s) will work. I suspect that this tape can be found through any auto or RV glass installation operation. But if anyone cannot find, I can ask my installer - Glaser Glass in New Bedford - where to find!

I also applaud this site and its members - so much info! By the way, in case anyone has need, I completely rebuilt my Atomic 4 last winter - couldn't afford new/rebuilt - complete with fresh water cooling. She purrs now! An experienced mariner once told me, whatever you do, paint it red.. so see pic attached... While I was at it, installed dripless packing - best thing I ever did - dry bilge all last summer!

More later, I need to "resize" some photos - including a good one of the dripless - gotta go right now.

John B.

 

[jkm]

Now that is one beautiful engine

 

[CaptDan]

Bill and all:

whatever you do, paint it red.. so see pic attached...John B.

She looks great!

BTW, our A4 is also painted red, or actually 'GMC Orange.' When it was rebuilt a few years ago, the mechanics suggested the color. At first I was skeptical deviating from the traditional Universal Copper.

But I've grown to like it. Sorta reminds me of the 10 grand I saved not buying what it looks like - a new diesel.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"

 

[John Bouchard]

Re-installation of Port lights using the "Tape" of caulk...

Regarding the re-installation of my portlights, I finally finished up the job last weekend. I haven't uncovered the boat yet, and so was unable to "test" the seal out yet.

However, I think those bad boys will not leak a bit. The installation seems rock solid. After tightening down the screws from the inside, a small amount of the black tape oozed out, and I trimmed this off. When I went back to the boat a week later, more caulk tape had oozed out, and the edge of the frames were flush with the deck. So I'm pretty sure there are no voids under the frame/cabin wall interface.

Figure out exactly where you want the frame to sit on the cabin face, and mark the round corners with a pencil.

When you fit the "tape" around the edge of the frame, reapply the paper (glossy side) to the tape, leaving dog ears on each piece, folded in such a way that you can "peel" off the paper with the frame against the cabin wall. In this way, you can slide the frame around a bit to get it right where you want it, and then pull out some of the protective paper and press the frame onto the wall. Then peel out the rest of the paper strips, press the whole frame so that it stays put, and then go inside and screw in the interior frame.

If you do not do this, it's virtually impossible to get the portlight in the right position, as the caulk will stick to the first surface it touches. You guessed it, I learned this the hard way!

Once I get the cover off, I'll run a hose over the boat to check for leaks. But I will be VERY surprised if these things leak now...

John B.

 

[John Bouchard]

Great success with sealing/gasket tape with Portlight installation

I finally remembered that several had asked me to comment on the success or failure of my project of re-installing my port-lights, using the "tape" of caulk that I found at the auto/boat glass dealer.

We had a very wet Spring, and we were on the boat during a couple of heavy-rain squalls in the Summer. I am glad to report that as best I could tell, not one drop of water leaked through any of the lights. To say the least, even my wife is happy! She's actually the reason I embarked on that project...

I'd recommend that anyone that is considering re-doing their portlights, use the tape stuff. It has worked beyond my hopes for a dry cabin!

Gareth, did you ever find out where you got the inner gasketing material? The glass dealer is really interested!

Thanks for listening... John B.

 

[tenders]

Thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen it originally. Another participant named Mainesail did a detailed writeup with pictures on the use of butyl tape on deck hardware, and I found rolls of light grey tape online (rather than black). That's one of this spring's projects--two of my windows are already out and awaiting remounting.

 

[Fred Dentinger]

Butyl Tape and U Shaped Gasket

With 8 windows out - I've read with great interest a number of threads referencing Butyl tape, and more importantly, the U shaped gasket for rebuilding orig portlights. However, I don't think a source for either was ever given..... other than "via Gareth". Tried PM to Gareth - but he appears to be off the grid.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[tenders]

The advice I got from Mark Hiscock at Mark Plastics, who just sent me two small, fixed replacement windows with white plastic frames and safety glass inserts, was not to bother disassembling the remaining aluminum frames and try to reinstall and/or replace that U-shaped gasket.

I had already tried this once some time ago, and it was quite a bit of work. I broke some of the glass in the process, and when all was said and done the windows still leaked a little and have gotten progressively worse. That project was actually what led me to plastic-framed windows, which worked well except that the plexiglass in them crazed over the 14 years they were installed, so I'm replacing them with glass and fully expect to get more than 14 years out of them.

It's Mark's opinion that that gasket approach is fundamentally flawed because the exterior sealing edge of the gasket deteriorates in UV and isn't very watertight in the first place. Furthermore, there will always be some sort of a leak-prone gap where the edges of the gasket butt up against each other, and no certainty that wedging the glass with the gasket into its channel in the aluminum frame will be successfully watertight. Indeed, the whole window design with its two split pieces is pretty poor.

His advice, which I'm going to try, is to leave the glass in place in the aluminum frame and to run a (masked-off) bead of Dow Corning 795 sealant all the way around the outer edge of the glass--effectively sealing what's left of the U-shaped gasket in place. That sealant is available from McMaster-Carr for about 8 bucks a tube in several colors--including grey which will look a lot like the aluminum frame and existing gasket.

That stuff in the photo is definitely butyl tape. It's quite inexpensive, a few bucks a roll. My boat partner just installed one of the windows using it last weekend in a driving snow--he said it was a cinch to work with and looks as though it will seal really well, although of course it's too early to tell.

 

[John Bouchard]

Where in the World is Gareth...

Gareth seems to travel a bit. I'm sure he'll check back in soon...

 

[Fred Dentinger]

Portlight Puzzle

Thanks Tenders, John, - I will run a bead of sealant from the outside edge.... But want to replace that bit of rubber..... tearing the dog house paneling out was a lot of work. Want best foot forward, short of buying new windows. Don't really like the plastic windows & can't affort glass.

 

[gareth harris]

With 8 windows out - I've read with great interest a number of threads referencing Butyl tape, and more importantly, the U shaped gasket for rebuilding orig portlights. However, I don't think a source for either was ever given..... other than "via Gareth". Tried PM to Gareth - but he appears to be off the grid.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have just got back on to the grid, so send me a message with what you need. I will be leaving the grid again either next week or next month, so please get in touch by tuesday at the latest.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[Bob Robertson]

Hi John,

I'm planning to rebed all of my ports this spring. I really like the idea of using the caulk tape.
I have a question. I'm assuming you overlapped the tape at the corners and perhaps flattened the overlap a bit to make for a consistent thickness.
It's probably an obvious question, but I haven't seen or felt the tape yet.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[tenders]

The tape is maybe 1/4" thick and bends easily around corners. If you're concerned that there's more than a 1/4" gap between the fit of your window and the bulkhead then you could use multiple layers to fill that gap. So far I have not had to do that.

The tape very slowly compresses and schmooshes between the frame and the window as you tighten down the screws. So you need to check and retighten the fasteners over the course of a day.

The one thing you may need to be cognizant of is that the window cutouts are not all that precise, so the butyl tape on the window frame may not come completely into contact with the bulkhead. The tape should be wide enough to still make a decent seal, but on my next window I'm going to try applying the tape to the bulkhead around the edges of the hole rather than to the window frame itself.

It's actually quite easy. It sure beats dealing with wet caulk, no doubt about it.

 

[Bob Robertson]

Hi John,

Thanks, I really like the idea of putting the caulking tape on the bulkhead.

Also, I was thinking that before I remove the port, it might work to cover the frame and the bulkhead with masking tape and then cut the tape where the frame meets the bulkhead. That would make clean up easy and also tell me where the port had been located before I removed it.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Bob Robertson]

Hi John,
I'm getting ready to re-seal my ports. I was wondering, since the butyl tape is black, can you see any black where the edge of the port meets the fiberglass?

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Gmilburn]

Butyl Tape

Just a quick comment.

Butyl tape can be found at most RV shops--as they use it to install or reinstall windows in RVs and Mobile Homes. The shop guy says it seals for decades--and essentially never drys out and makes a waterproof seal.

It comes in white, gray or black. A roll of it (I think it was 10-12 feet) cost me $6.95.

If or when I ever re-bed my portlights--no doubt this is what I plan to use.

 

[Bob Robertson]

Thanks Gary,

Only lasts for decades. I'm very impressed. That should be long enough.

Looking in an RV supply store really makes sense. I had been looking in auto stores.

Thanks again,
Bob