Reef percentage's for an E35-2; What works? What was factory default?

[robjpowell]

I am at the point of ordering a new Dacron mainsail and therefore have the luxury of deciding on reefing percentages. The old mainsail I 'inherited' when I bought the boat 5 years ago is so VERY stretched and bagged that I hesitate to infer anything useful from the 20/40% reductions the 2 current reefs give. At present as soon as the wind comes up to 15 the boat heels and I get that look from my beloved. Realizing that most of this heel is due to the lack of shape in the sails we are flying it makes it hard to know what to do -should I get a 1st reef point that is smaller so we reef early but don't excessively loose sail area? Should we go with the 'standard' percentages? Or, should I opt for larger percentages? Over the years I have spent significant time on boats that performed best with 15/40, 20/40 and 25/50% reductions as their 1st and 2nd reefs. I just don't have any experience with a properly outfitted E35-2. I am sure in the collective experience there is something that is known to work well and something that people have regretted opting for. Can you share with me what has worked well for you? Do you know what the original factory percentage reductions were?

Thanks in advance
Rob

PS; We currently use Blue Chip for shorthanded family cruising (day and coastal) but do hope to do some distance/pursuit races once the new sails are here. We do not intend to use her for beer can races or offshore work as I have several more modern boats I already sail on for those races.

 

[Seth]

Reef percentage

The answer is a bit more complicated. It depends on what you have for a headsail inventory, and when you change down to smaller headsails. Also whether or not you race with a full crew who are hiking on the rail as the should while racing. The more crew weight you have the longer you can go before shortening sail. While the second point obviously applies to racing, the first point applies in general.

What I suggest is you work with a GOOD, knowledgeable sailmaker, and have this discussion-tell him what you have for headsails, discuss when you change down, and you should be able to arrive at a good percentage break for the 2 reefs. There is not fixed answer as every boat is a bit different in terms of equipment and sail inventory.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

 

[robjpowell]

The answer is a bit more complicated. It depends on what you have for a headsail inventory, and when you change down to smaller headsails. Also whether or not you race with a full crew who are hiking on the rail as the should while racing. The more crew weight you have the longer you can go before shortening sail. While the second point obviously applies to racing, the first point applies in general.

What I suggest is you work with a GOOD, knowledgeable sailmaker, and have this discussion-tell him what you have for headsails, discuss when you change down, and you should be able to arrive at a good percentage break for the 2 reefs. There is not fixed answer as every boat is a bit different in terms of equipment and sail inventory.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

Thanks for taking the time to respond Seth. Unfortunately Ericson's are few and far between here in the North East and all I seem to get is the old 'well we like to do A & B' pat answer. When asked why the response is invariably 'thats just what we find people like'. As I tend to feel the hull shape, boom height etc are all distinctly different from the 'usual' I'm not too happy with that flippant explanation. I am aware of the boat prep & load/sailing style/sail area differences but had been hoping I might have got a few pointers such as 'the factory sails were X & Y' but when we found them too deep/small'. Maybe the best solution is for me to talk to more sailmakers and hope I run across one who can actually recall working on these boats.

Cheers
Rob

PS: 130% RF headsail (clew ~4' off deck, toerail track), boat is not racing light but certainly not loaded, we cruise without rail meat.

 

[Seth]

Well..............

There were no factory defaults because as I said before, the choice of reef percentage is a function of many variables-mainly to do with the chosen sail
inventory. Most boats were sold with no sails as most buyers opted to work with a local loft to build a sail inventory which met the specific style and desires of the owners.

I think you are talking to the wrong sailmakers; Doyle, UK/Halsey, North, Quantum, Haarstick, Ullman, etc. all have very experienced sail designers with whom you can have this chat.

Also, there is nothing unconventional about the design of your boat-certainly nothing that would make sail design unusual.

My opinion as a "recovering" sailmaker would be 20/40 based on the 130% RF genoa you use as your primary headsail.

Hope this helps....

S

 

[robjpowell]

Seth,Thanks so much. I was totally unaware that many boats were sold sans sails. That does put a big change on things. My comment on the non-typical rig is in comparison to designs of the 80's onwards that tend to have more roach, larger foot to luff ratios and lower goosenecks compared to what I have. That is not to say the mix does not work or perform as designed just that rig ideas have evolved and changed. Your list of lofts does actually include a couple I talked to but many i have not. However, on reflection it may well be that both by voicing this purchase as a cruisers purchase and trying to get assistance during the busy early season period I created my own problem -I think that these may well have conspired to mean i was given a quick answer not a considered one by the big lofts (a one off sale compared to a long term many unit relationship with a racer?). Whatever the reason I'll keep looking for that loft I feel good working with. RegardsRob

 

[Dave N]

Wisdom with age...

Seems to me some factory defaults can be improved upon. For me, one item is the height of the boom and the designers intent to beat measurement rules with a drooping clew. I'll be ordering a new main over the winter, but I intend to drop the boom/gooseneck about 16 inches and will order the sail accordingly.

I am at the point of ordering a new Dacron mainsail and therefore have the luxury of deciding on reefing percentages. The old mainsail I 'inherited' when I bought the boat 5 years ago is so VERY stretched and bagged that I hesitate to infer anything useful from the 20/40% reductions the 2 current reefs give. At present as soon as the wind comes up to 15 the boat heels and I get that look from my beloved. Realizing that most of this heel is due to the lack of shape in the sails we are flying it makes it hard to know what to do -should I get a 1st reef point that is smaller so we reef early but don't excessively loose sail area? Should we go with the 'standard' percentages? Or, should I opt for larger percentages? Over the years I have spent significant time on boats that performed best with 15/40, 20/40 and 25/50% reductions as their 1st and 2nd reefs. I just don't have any experience with a properly outfitted E35-2. I am sure in the collective experience there is something that is known to work well and something that people have regretted opting for. Can you share with me what has worked well for you? Do you know what the original factory percentage reductions were?

Thanks in advance
Rob

PS; We currently use Blue Chip for shorthanded family cruising (day and coastal) but do hope to do some distance/pursuit races once the new sails are here. We do not intend to use her for beer can races or offshore work as I have several more modern boats I already sail on for those races.

 

[robjpowell]

Dave,
I for one would be interested to know how it all works out price & performance wise (ie rating change vs perceived speed/point). Dropping the boom is certainly on the list, but given what we have invested over the last 4 years (new electrical, plumbing, recored deck, standing & running rigging have already been done) it was not in the budget this time. After the traveller replacement and conversion of 2 winches to self tailers (I'm thinking Winchmate for that) I will be able to move onto more 'elective' improvements. The boom is high on that list.

 

[Seth]

Sails and reefing

Seth,Thanks so much. I was totally unaware that many boats were sold sans sails. That does put a big change on things. My comment on the non-typical rig is in comparison to designs of the 80's onwards that tend to have more roach, larger foot to luff ratios and lower goosenecks compared to what I have. That is not to say the mix does not work or perform as designed just that rig ideas have evolved and changed. Your list of lofts does actually include a couple I talked to but many i have not. However, on reflection it may well be that both by voicing this purchase as a cruisers purchase and trying to get assistance during the busy early season period I created my own problem -I think that these may well have conspired to mean i was given a quick answer not a considered one by the big lofts (a one off sale compared to a long term many unit relationship with a racer?). Whatever the reason I'll keep looking for that loft I feel good working with. RegardsRob

The models that often had sails shipped with them were the small boats (under 30'). This market teneded to be more first time buyers who were less sophisticated or had simpler sailing plans. It was extremely rare to supply sails with anything over 32' (but not unheard of). Most of these buyers had relationships with sailmakers already, and given the 35-2 was pretty hot in it's day, many had very customized sail inventories. My comment about the design being very normal is in context of it's vintage-actually back then it was considered a pretty lightweight, racy design. Generally speaking it is a very moderate and "normal" boat with no unusual sail design requirements.

I did not mean to say these are the only sailmakers who can do a good job for you, but if you are not getting the discussion from them about your type of sailing and what headsails you are using, or they are unfamiliar with this boat, they are FOR SURE the wrong guys to work with.
Avoid anyone who is not familiar with your boat-it is a very well known design and unless your sailmaker is very young he/she should not only know the boat, but have an "ah, yes" comment when you mention it. Finally, my suggestion is to never buy a sail from someone who is not local, or will not physically come and measure the boat for the ideal fit. Sails are not shoes, and they are expensive. Get the best product you can and have it fitted to your boat. Even boats of the same design can have differences in mast tune, rake, genoa track setup, etc., which will affect the final design of the sail.

I still think 20/40 is a good choice for you.

Cheers!

 

[steven]

I sold and brokered Ercisons, including the 35-2, in the 1970s. That included writing the commissioning spec. which included the sails. As Seth says, sails were generally ordered from local lofts. I did not specify reefs in %. If the buyer was going to race or was reasonably skilled, I'd ask the loft to to make the reefs "shallow". If novices were buying, I'd request the reefs points to be "deep". Deep and shallow meant relative to where the sailmaker thought would make sense for local conditions. This varied from loft to loft and even from order to order within the same loft. It just wasn't that precise. Relied heavily on the sailmaker's judgment and skill.

A good sailmaker will know about local conditions - not just the boat. Where to put the reefs depends strongly on what wind ranges are encountered and how often.

(by the way, your hull number is quite close to mine.)


--Steve