Starter... Solenoid? Wiring?

[Chris Miller]

Hey all...
I'm having trouble getting my starter to turn. I've got full power in the batteries.
I've searched on this topic here and found a couple of things, but wanted to check with you all and see what else I should be looking for.
So far I'm thinking

1. Check the wiring at the start switch
2. check the wiring from switch to solenoid

Any other thoughts? It won't turn over at all. I'm getting power drain when I push the start button (ours isn't wired to need the glow plug on when starting- I'll worry about the chamber being warm enough to actually start after I get it to turn).
Any other thoughts would be appreciated. I'd much prefer to replace the solenoid (under a boat unit) or fix wiring than replace the starter (like 9 boat units).
Thanks,
Chris

 

[chaco]

When in Doubt...Jump it Out !

Chris....
This is going to be a process of elimination thing.
Take a 12ga wire from your battery+ to the starter solenoid + and
attempt to run starter. This goes around your ignition wiring and
ELIMINATES this potential voltage drop from connections/switching
external solenoid and wiring.
If the starter runs the ignition wiring is the problem
As the starter does not respond, now its either the solenoid or the
starting motor. To go any further you have to remove the starter.
Take it to a auto electric shop and have it tested.
If the starter is more than 10 years, old have it rebuilt for safety
Before you go cruising to the Virgin Islands....bring a spare starter

Good Luck /) /)

 

[Kim Schoedel]

Chris, Dan's test to make sure you have power from the ignition to the starter. If you have power, you may try an old fashioned method. Take a chunk of wood or a rubber mallet and smack the starter a few times. Your starter may have a "flat spot". Have someone ready to engage the ignition to start while you smack the starter. Be careful not to be in danger of the v-belt and any other moving exterior parts!!

Kim
Windfall
35-3

 

[rssailor]

Starter trouble

Put power strait to the activator spot on the solinoid. If nothing happens, take the starter out and take it to a good starter alternator shop and have them tear it apart and fix it. Should cost way less than a new one. Good luck. Ryan

 

[NateHanson]

I think we were paying about a buck and a quarter for a starter rebuild around here. Waaaaay less than 9 boat units!

 

[Chris Miller]

Thanks...

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I have been busting my rear on a work project the past few days that I have to get installed on Sunday... So the boat has been sitting idle for a few extra of the nicest days all winter. But hopefully I can get back to her this week.
Kim, I've used the "tap lightly with winch handle" method before, which is why I started looking into what might be wrong. I'm sensing a rebuild is in the future- I'm also going to see if there is an industrial model that would fit and not cost me a fortune. I was talking to a trucker friend of mine who said I might be able to find one for $250-ish.
Either way, I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks for the help.
Chris

PS. I'm thinking about organizing a diesel systems class from a company in Annapolis, if any of you mid-atlantic sailors would be interested. I know I could use an 8 or 16 hour course in this stuff!

 

[chaco]

Flat spot will happen again ! Unfortunately we can't have our buddies give
us a PUSH to get er started and off the FLAT SPOT !

REMEMBER.....this is a tractor starter, not an expensive Marine Part !

Good Luck /) /)

 

[Ernest]

Just a quick thought. Rotate the engine by hand with the pulley just in case something is frozen up. Then follow previously advise given by others.

 

[rwpajak]

Chris,
My experience on an E26.
1. When I first got the boat the owner said he had recently replaced starter.
2. After a month or so I started seeing the starter not move on the first few pushes of the starter switch. Then total failure. Found I had a defective Glow Plug switch. Started great after replacing the switch.
3. Started seeing the problem again next season. Finally total failure. Found it was the alternator this time and raelly was a combination of starter and switches the previous time (I'm an electrical engineer so I won't go into the details ).
4. Replaced the $400=$500 marinized starter with a Kubota tractor "exact " replacement from my local tractor shop. My Universal engine is built from a Kubota block. C0st $120 and less than 3 days availability. I took both unit apart and there is very little difference between the tractor unit and the original marinized unit. Anyone can do the mods and I expect to do them on mine this spring.
5. The biggest problem on 1987 vintage E26's is the wiring and switches. I will be instaling auto relays between the switches andd the solenoid and glo plugs. The relays can take the high DC currents MUCH better than the rather wimpy switches that are sold. When switching hign DC currents, quite an arc is generated when the switch contacts open and it destroys contacts not made of the right materials and not opening to a large enough distance quickly so the arc in extinguished. In fact, on some high current DC relays, magnets are placed by the contacts to "pull" the arc out sideways, increasing its length and extinguishing it more quickly.
6. So....if you have a voltmeter, check the voltage drop to see where your problems are:
a. Across the start switch contacts when actuated.
b. Across the Glow Plug switch when actuated
c. Across the wires/switches between the solenoid terminal and the Battery + terminal
d. Battery voltage during start.
e. Voltage at the starter between the big starter
wire and the starter case during starting.
7. Every boat should have a voltmeter on board.
8. Good luck.

 

[mark reed]

Chris,
I've had intermittent problems getting my starter to turn over. I had the starter rebuilt, and that didn't help. My best guess is the wiring between the start switch and the solenoid. Have you tried jumping the contacts on your solenoid with a screwdriver? That would eliminate the starter or the "flat spot" as the sources of trouble.

 

[chaco]

Flat Spots on starters are locations on the motor armature where
the brushes no longer have good contact due to wear.
You have two choices. Engage the solenoid and turn the motor
by hand off the flat spot or rebuild the starter.....if there is enough
left of it to rebuild ! I recommend pulling any starter on a boat that
has been proven to be unreliable.

Bob...Thank you for the simple procedure to test the ignition wiring
and PINPOINT the source of the starting problem.

 

[Rocinante33]

starter woes

Chris,
Have you looked at the owners projects here on the E.Y. web site? I think there is a project by Tom Meztger to upgrade the ignition wiring to address those types of problems. I think it is titled "Universal Engine Mods." I will do that upgrade one of these days......it is a long list!
Keith
E-33

 

[Chris Miller]

on to the voltmeter...

Again, thanks for all the helpful suggestions on this one...
I jumped the starter and it turned over just fine. That's a relief! Now on to diagnosis and upgrades in the wiring. I downloaded Tom M's upgrade sheet.
I also talked to some of my sailor buds and found out about a local Amish guy who specializes in starters and alternators. I'll do that when I have time after I get the wiring stuff figured out.
Thanks again!
Chris

 

[Tom Metzger]

My experience is that bad switches, start and/or key sw, cause as much problem as anything else.

 

[Chris Miller]

Starter update...

Turns out after checking the switch and doing some continuity testing that there was some corrosion on a terminal to the fuse going to the starter. Spun right up after that... except that it didn't actually start, the fuel pump wasn't working.

But, I had noticed a stray wire down there with a broken terminal on it...
I checked the wiring diagram and it looked like it could be a ground that came from the fuel pump... it was.
Thanks again for all your help.
Chris

BTW, for anyone looking- I found the Nippondenso starter for $179.00--- just in case. Much better than Torrensen's $900

 

[jgarmin098]

How about this from the owner projects section of this site:

Change "B": This change replaces the #16 wire between the "Start" switch and the starter solenoid. This small wire has caused starting problems in the past for many boaters.

1. Remove the yellow-red wire from the terminal of the starter solenoid.

2. Remove the fuse holder from the yellow-red wire or purchase a new fuse holder with 20 amp fuses.

3. Connect the fuse holder to the orange wire disconnected in step 2 in change "A".

4. Connect the fuse holder to the now empty terminal on the solenoid.

5. Remove the yellow-red wire from the starter switch.

6. Connect the other end of the orange wire to the now vacant terminal of the starter switch.

7. Tape both ends of the yellow-red wire to prevent short circuits and to keep the wire from flopping around.

 

[CaptnNero]

I had this same problem on first boat, a Pearson. A diesel mechanic told me to run 10 gauge just like in the "Change B" procedure and it worked like a charm.

Now my 34-200 is doing it, so I'm headed to the boat in a few minutes to do the upgrade.

-- neal

How about this from the owner projects section of this site:

Change "B": This change replaces the #16 wire between the "Start" switch and the starter solenoid. This small wire has caused starting problems in the past for many boaters.

1. Remove the yellow-red wire from the terminal of the starter solenoid.

2. Remove the fuse holder from the yellow-red wire or purchase a new fuse holder with 20 amp fuses.

3. Connect the fuse holder to the orange wire disconnected in step 2 in change "A".

4. Connect the fuse holder to the now empty terminal on the solenoid.

5. Remove the yellow-red wire from the starter switch.

6. Connect the other end of the orange wire to the now vacant terminal of the starter switch.

7. Tape both ends of the yellow-red wire to prevent short circuits and to keep the wire from flopping around.

 

[CaptnNero]

Works like a charm

The starter cranks immediately now . You'd think the button had a hair trigger. My last boat was an '88 E32-200 and it never had the problem in 5 years. It must have been modified already.

This E34 always started ok when the charger was plugged in, so the factory 16 gauge must have been just on the threshold. The batteries were brand new also. When we survey her 18 months ago we had problems but I thought it was because the engine starting battery cables were loose.

-- neal

I had this same problem on first boat, a Pearson. A diesel mechanic told me to run 10 gauge just like in the "Change B" procedure and it worked like a charm.

Now my E34 is doing it, so I'm headed to the boat in a few minutes to do the upgrade.

-- neal