Windvane / autopilot Choices

[N.A.]

Update after a good bit of (inshore) use:

* The more I use the Hydrovane, the more I like it, even for short-ish trips inside SF Bay. A Monitor vane would be even nicer there, I think, since it has an easily raisable-lowerable rudder, which is clearly pretty handy. I got the Hydrovane for other reasons, mainly involving my particular wheel.

I have to put the Hydrovane rudder on by hand each time before going out. I have a swim-step, so that is not hard -- I do not turn the boat around to be stern-in to the slip, as I was told I would have to. Despite the hassle, I am using it more and more... I find taking the mainsail cover off more onerous, if that gives a measure of the perceived hassle-factor.

A few comments:

- The fact that it is silent is awesome. My Raymarine EV100 wheel pilot noise really annoys me.

- It works in any wind, up to 30+ kts so far. By contrast, the Raymarine struggles more and more over 22 kts, and especially downwind with any swell, even "in the bay" 2-3' wind waves after a long day of high wind.

- I don't use it for short tacking (e.g. in a narrow-ish channel like Racoon strait), but don't mind steering by hand in that case. I do use the Raymarine a bit then though....

- I find the fact that it steers to the apparent wind -- and so no adjustment by me is required as the wind shifts around an island or something -- to be very nice. Easy to chill and eat lunch without mucking about with the heading.

- I will always want a wheel-pilot though (if singlehanding) for those times when I need the heading fixed while I do something else (e.g. if avoiding shallow water to one side, or a known hazard).

- Upwind the vane works pretty well; by a broad or deep broad reach course is held only to ~ +/-15 deg. This is disconcerting at first (30 deg total arc, which is pretty noticeable), but you get over it. I did calculate how much extra distance one covers (I am not a racer, so only care marginally) -- for +/- 15 deg, you travel only a couple of percent extra distance... no wonder cruisers don't mind.

Anyway, I am quite happy with the windvane (+ wheel-pilot), and glad I did not plop equivalent money into a fancy below-decks autopilot.

Thanks again to all that provided advice on the selection/decision!


PS: For anyone new to using a Hydrovane:

- The resources I saw instruct one to get the boat well-balanced on a heading, then lock the wheel, then set up the Hydrovane. I find this difficult singlehanded -- when I turn away from the wheel, the heading always drifts before I get the vane get up properly.

Rather, what I do is:
- Get the boat on the desired heading, vaguely balanced (possibly even with vane still engaged on wrong heading, e.g. after a tack)
- Lock wheel (P.S: engaging my Raymarine clutch helps reinforce my not-great wheel lock)
- Engage/adjust windvane. Probably it is not in the right position / it's rudder is fighting the mis-positioned main rudder.
Then:
- Observe Hydrovane tiller position; if it is off-center, on average, adjust main wheel to reduce that. Vane tiller position then moves closer to center (on average).
- Iterate a time or two until Hydrovane tiller stays pretty centered. This results in the boat being balanced as they say it should have been, but in a (to me) more achievable set of steps. I can see the boatspeed increase as I iterate into optimal configuration, as the rudders fight each other less.
- If I change heading a bit using the vane controls, I can then (if I'm not too lazy) repeat this optimization to rebalance the boat on the new heading.

 

[Christian Williams]

a broad or deep broad reach course is held only to ~ +/-15 deg. This is disconcerting at first (30 deg total arc,

You should be able to reduce such unacceptable deviations by sail trim, especially mainsail trim. Reefing may well be required to balance the rig. Vanes demand such attention and sometimes it takes a bit of experimentation to tame the boat so the vane can relax and enjoy it.

 

[N.A.]

Just and update re: windvanes:

I recently spent some time offshore, and ended up motoring for many hours. I found the (now a CPT) Autopilot struggled to hold the course steady.... and the culprit, upon further testing, was the Hydrovane rudder -- once it is removed, the CPT does fine; with it installed, the CPT fights, wandering many degrees to either side in a problematic way. (N.b.: one locks the Hydrovane tiller position while motoring, but the unmoving rudder surface far aft affects steering response. Messing with the CPT settings did not easily fix it, though it may still be user error.)

Maybe I'll get that sorted as I get more used to the CPT settings, but I will note that there is a huge difference between the Hydrovane and many of the other windvane systems (e.g. Monitor):

The Hydrovane rudder needs to be installed before you leave the dock, and while you might be able to remove it offshore, you will almost certainly never get it back on offshore (outside of a dead calm). So in practice it will be on for the entire journey. And, if it causes trouble for a wheel pilot then you may struggle to use your wheel pilot. And, as I discovered, unless you are headed to Hawaii or something, coastal cruising (even out 35+nm) can involve a lot of motoring; really, near the Bay Area, must involve it -- the shipping lanes run far out, and one needs to be able to move out of the way with some alacrity even in low wind.)

A Monitor, on the other hand -- you'd just lift the windvane rudder and motor as usual. Easy to drop the rudder back down when you want it again.

Anyway, there are many pros and cons to the various windvanes, but this is one I had not been prepared for. Adding it here in case it's helpful to anyone else.

 

[vanilladuck]

(N.b.: one locks the Hydrovane tiller position while motoring, but the unmoving rudder surface far aft affects steering response. Messing with the CPT settings did not easily fix it, though it may still be user error.)

Aye - that's a lot of moment force very far aft on the hull of the boat. I still have yet to install my Hydrovane, but I thought I saw in the product literature that one puts the device in "Neutral" or "N" mode when steering with the boat's main rudder. The Neutral mode allows the Hydrovane rudder to turn freely with the flow of water around the stern.

Did you happen to try this setting?

 

[N.A.]

Thanks for the suggestion, Bryan. As it happens, one really has to lock it central when motoring.*

If you don't, the prop wash knocks the rudder back and forth to its limits causing dramatic steering effects in either direction at random intervals. It's definitely not optional to lock the rudder central during motoring. I know this from experience -- if I forget to lock the Hydrovane before motoring, I find it extremely difficult to hold a course at all, and have to put the engine in neutral and insert the pin before going back into fwd. Somehow the times I manage to forget are almost always inconvenient ones, and that pin is hard to get in : )

You put the rudder in Neutral (freely turning) when under sail (no motor) and not using the windvane for steering (i.e., if you want to be steering by hand or using a wheel- or belowdecks-autopilot.) Then the rudder follows the boat motion.

However, even when motoring with the Hydrovane rudder locked central, steering is still weird for the autopilot (I don't find it so by hand... I suspect it's something about the slower response of the boat to the helm that causes trouble for the autpilot controller, but one automatically compensates for by hand.) Some autopilots may deal with that better than others... and maybe I'll sort out the CPT pilot settings to make this work ok; still new-ish to that system. Anyway, whatever the cause, I wanted to mention the issue here since I had never seen any mention of it in other windvane discussions.

* Manual section is 'Motoring – Hydrovane Not In Use': "Shaft Locking Pin #61 (below the Tiller) inserted to fix Hydrovane rudder central." Case is different if you are using a tiller pilot to control the Hydrovane rudder while motoring, but I do not do that.

 

[vanilladuck]

Ah, interesting! Thanks for the additional explanation

Curious the autopilot exhibits this issue but it's not noticeable when hand steering. I'll be interested to see if my E32-3 exhibits a similar issue after I install my Hydrovane. I wish I had a hunch about why this is happening.

Is your Hydrovane mounted on the centerline of the boat or off-center to one side of the transom?

 

[southofvictor]

Interesting, I haven’t noticed a similar issue with our Hydrovane when motoring with the wheel pilot. The boat actually feels like it tracks pretty well. Maybe because of the size difference and different distances between keel, prop, rudder, and Hydrovane rudder?

I haven’t felt as much of a negative impact coming alongside with it as I’d expected from the literature, either. Maybe on par with a cruising keel / skeg rudder boat.