Winch Rebuild: "Barient" Replacement Pawls from Lewmar--just say NO!

[Kenneth K]

I went to rebuild two of my '85 Barient winches (size 17-ST and 18). These things are built like tanks. The old grease inside was so dry I had to scrape it off with plastic blades. It reminded me of crayon wax. The old pawls weren't in too bad a shape, but one of the springs was jammed/bent from being installed improperly. I figured since I had them apart I would replace the pawls and springs.

Barient 17 ST Winch


Several merchants (I used West Marine and Fisheries Supply) offer so called "Barient replacement" parts or kits (packaged by Lewmar) wherein pawls and springs can be purchased either separately or in sets. I was astonished at the poor manufacturing quality of these "Barient" replacement pawls. They were so bad, I inspected two more lots to see if I could find any that were better. I looked at 4 different packages from 2 different vendors--they all had the same poor quality.



I'm not knocking Lewmar, as the "Lewmar" replacement pawls for their own winches seem to be very high quality. They are, unfortunately about 3/32" shorter than the Barient pawls, so I didn't want to use them. Ditto for Harken pawls.

Lewmar (bottom) vs original Barient pawl and spring.

As for springs, all 3 brands appear similar, but the Lewmar springs have two bent tails, while the Barient has one straight and one bent tail. Minor, but will it make a difference? Harken springs appear to be of slightly smaller gauge wire, and have only one winding in the circular spring while the Barient springs have two windings.

In the end, I'm re-using my original pawls and going with Barient replacement springs (packaged by Lewmar, bought at WM). There goes another 5 hours of looking for the right parts......

 

[Christian Williams]

I'm with you on the pawls. Also, the WM springs fit Barients fine in my experience.

Usually all required is a good cleaning, and as you say old grease on the pawls requires quite a lot of work to get off, but the result is "like new" operation.

We're supposed to keep grease away from the pawls, and use only light oil there.

Dark aluminum drums heat like frying pans in summer sun, which turns grease to sludge and then ear wax and then macadam.

Winch covers slow that process down, allegedly.

 

[tenders]

A soak in diesel dissolves the grease without scraping.

 

[GrandpaSteve]

Kerosene works well if you happen to have that. I used a pan of kerosene, a stiff brush, and a toothbrush to make quick work of cleaning old grease from my winches.

I keep kero for a great kerosene space heater we bought for Y2K prep and never needed, the heat feels great on achy joints though so we use it on long winter days.

 

[sharonov]

A soak in diesel dissolves the grease without scraping.

Second that. And since diesel is essentially oil it is easy on hands. More aggressive solvents may work faster but than you need to wear gloves. So it is diesel and a bunch of pointy qtips for me.

 

[Christian Williams]

Here is still more for anybody doing this for the first time:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?223-Overdue-Winch-Service

 

[Kenneth K]

I used paint thinner as a solvent. It worked fine. My garage is being re-built so I did most of the scrubbing in my bathtub. The mild odor of thinner was pretty bearable indoors.

A 1 gal paint can is a convenient container to soak the parts in.

 

[Navman]

Christian,
Just read your blog on winch cleaning. One of my Barient 23's seized and the drum wouldn't turn. Time to take it apart for some well needed cleaning. Only problem is that the seized up 23 will not release its drum to me. I was doing some coaxing with a rubber mallet and just got a lot of calcified debris coming out of the winch base. The drum has apparently developed such a tight relationship with the assembly over the 30+ years they have been together that they will not be parted. I have sprayed with PB Blaster as much as I could and have let it set for 2 weeks. I will see how it goes this weekend when I go back down to the boat. I am expecting the interior to look much like yours or maybe worse. At this point I am guessing that they have never been taken apart and maintained EVER!. So I am adding them all to the ever growing "list" to be cleaned and serviced. If only I could get my bank account to grow as prosperously as my "things to do " list. Wow! I would be in great financial shape!!

 

[Christian Williams]

With the ST arm removed you might try dribbling a gallon of vinegar down the top in hopes of dissolving salts on the races.

Or maybe the gear cogs are stuck on the lower drum, which would mean sharp raps with a hammer there.

I found it convenient to take the winches off the boat, which in fact was necessary to completely disassemble the Barient 27s (kind of a bad design for that particular model). It wasn't that hard to get them off and on.

 

[slipstreamer]

Is this a Barient 17 ST - two speed winch??

I went to rebuild two of my '85 Barient winches (size 17-ST and 18).

My Ericson 35.3 has a Barient winch on the cabin top but it does not have a number on the drum. It is self-tailing and two speed. The dimensions are a max diam of 5", height of 6.5". I will add a photo of it. I want to find a second one of these to add to the other side of the cabin top, but I am struggling to figure out what winch this is. It looks to be the same size as a 17 ST but the only ST i have seen from Barient is a single speed...

Ken - is your 17ST single or double speed and does it have a number on the top of the drum?

Can anyone help confirm my model? Extra credit if you can source one for sale!

 

[supersailor]

That looks like a 21. I have three of them on my cabin top and a 19 one speed.

 

[ConchyDug]

The pawls at WM for Barients are junk, they need to be beveled on the engagement side a little bit or they won't fit. Honestly after just rebuilding a Lewmar and using them on other boats, I'm not impressed at all(plastic strippers, plastic bearing cages, and plastic spacers are dumb), rant over. A Barient looks like a work of art next to a Lewmar. I'll add my preferred cleaner is low odor mineral spirits with a brass brush. Has anybody found it necessary to replace the Barient primaries from wear?

 

[Kenneth K]

Ken - is your 17ST single or double speed and does it have a number on the top of the drum?

Mine is a single speed 17-self tailer. Overall winch dimensions are 5 1/8" wide x 6 1/4" tall. It is stamped with "Barient" and "17" on the top of the drum.

For comparison, the Barient 18 (2 speed, non-ST) I am also rebuilding has the same outer drum width: 5 1/8" wide, though the drum height is shorter than the 17 ST. The 18 has an inner-drum (where the rope wraps) of 3 1/16", the 17's inner drum is about 2 31/32" (inner drums were measured by placing a block of wood on either side of drum, so, rough measurements.)

I've seen quite a few Barient winch posts on ebay.

Yeah, these Barients were built like tanks. I haven't seen this much good old American metal since working on my '76 Chevy Nova.

 

[slipstreamer]

Hi Bob and Ken
Thanks for the info. The dimensions of the 21 suggest it is taller than my one and the photos I have seen show the lowest section of the drum (under the indent that runs around the base) is about 1.5" whereas mine is 1.0" The 17 is much closer, but single speed.

I have not serviced the winch since I bought the boat (Oct'17), so I think I will pull it apart and see if I can figure out more. I'll also take my calipers to the boat for more accurate measuring. I'll let you know what I find...

If others have other ideas, please let me know!
Steve
​

 

[markvone]

Steve,

The Barient catalog linked below only shows the 17ST as a single speed. Notice that the 21/22ST (and the 19ST and 23ST which are not shown on this year catalog) all are VERY similar in size. All four look tall and skinny compared to the 18 and smaller and the 24ST and larger.

http://l-36.com/barient_catalog.php

If you go here:

http://l-36.com/winches.php

you can see all the variants of the Barients and get dimensions and layout diagrams which will make you more comfortable taking one completely apart. I found I didn't need to reference the drawings when I took mine apart - it was much more logical and easier to reassemble than it looks when you start.

Ken is right. The internal parts are impressive. I'll take an old used Barient over a new winch any day.



I've found (and bought) used self tailing Barients in the following places:

Local marine consignment store (Bacon's, Annapolis in my case) - If you're lucky they will have an online listing.

Ebay - if you set up an auto search Ebay will do all the work and email you when items are listed.

Craigslist - I used http://www.my-craigs-finder.com/ to look by state. You can check as far as you are willing to drive.

Lastly Hutton-Arco bought the tooling for Barient/Barlow and have certain parts:

http://www.arco-winches.com/products/spares

I would certainly think a spare winch for parts would be cheaper for small common parts. For example, I think most of the ratchet pawls and springs are the same (Arco P/N #01-400, $38 in 2010 plus shipping from Australia). There have to be thousands of small non-ST Barients available cheap. Bacon's has dozens of 10 - 18s. Heck, I have six 18s that I've been planning to get rid of.

Mark

 

[Christian Williams]

I found I didn't need to reference the drawings when I took mine apart - it was much more logical and easier to reassemble than it looks when you start.

I also found that true. The first step of disassembly can be most confusing: some use a deck plate spanner, some have a circlip, some need an allen wrench inserted where the winch handle goes. Sometimes the on-line Barient exploded views don't match the winch anyhow, even if the model numbers match. Some models have to come off the boat in order to be completely disassembled.

If working on the boat, one trick is to put an open-top cardboard box around the winch to catch any flying irreplaceable parts.

 

[footrope]

Lewmar pawls

... snip

I'm not knocking Lewmar, as the "Lewmar" replacement pawls for their own winches seem to be very high quality. They are, unfortunately about 3/32" shorter than the Barient pawls, so I didn't want to use them. Ditto for Harken pawls.

View attachment 23687 Lewmar (bottom) vs original Barient pawl and spring.

As for springs, all 3 brands appear similar, but the Lewmar springs have two bent tails, while the Barient has one straight and one bent tail. Minor, but will it make a difference? Harken springs appear to be of slightly smaller gauge wire, and have only one winding in the circular spring while the Barient springs have two windings.

In the end, I'm re-using my original pawls and going with Barient replacement springs (packaged by Lewmar, bought at WM). There goes another 5 hours of looking for the right parts......

Does it make a difference that the Lewmar pawls are shorter? As long as you use a matched pair, they rotate easily (oil only, no grease) and catch the landing surfaces does the shorter pawl work just as well? The only way to find out is to assemble one that way and I am not able to do that experiment for awhile. Checking the documents isn't conclusive.

I have noticed the later pawls are rougher, not nicely finished, but I don't recall there was a significant length difference in the ones I bought 3 years ago when I did all but the primaries. Maybe I'll check my inventory.

I have a 21 non-ST and a 22 non-ST on the mast and one had a badly cracked main shaft. ebay saved the day for me vs. buying new from Australia. I got a pair of used winches for cheaper than the new part. And no delay for manufacturing or shipping.

 

[slipstreamer]

Mark,
Great info. Thank you!
Steve

 

[markvone]

Steve,

You're welcome.

I just read the E35-3 brochure and double checked your posted picture. The brochure says the E35-3 came with a Barient 19ST 2 speed mainsheet winch and shows it mounted on the stbd side like yours.

The dimensions for the 19ST 2 speed are: drum dia. - 3", max dia. - 5 3/4", height - 7".

Anything is possible after 30+ years but I doubt someone has changed your mainsheet winch from the original unless they needed more power for some reason or the original broke and they got a bigger 21/22/23ST easier or cheaper. The 19ST is the smallest size 2 speed ST.

I'd measure it again to confirm if it really matters to you.... But

The dimensions for the 23ST 2 speed are: drum dia. - 3", max dia. - 6 9/16", height - 7 9/16" - within 3/4" for max (base) dia. and 1/2" height.

You could get any of the four sizes 19/21/22/23ST that becomes available for the port side and probably not even notice the difference because the sizes are all so close,

I noticed this when I was planning to upgrade by non-ST size 18s to larger STs so I went with 23STs to get the most power for the size.

EXTRA CREDIT:

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/bpd/d/huge-selection-of-winches-for/6451286758.html

https://baconsails.com/consignment/winches/

Neither of these are near you but typical of consignment stores. They have mostly non-ST models and only singles of ST models - which works for you. Finding a single ST from a private party (Craigslist/Ebay) should be even easier and cost less. Typically, sailors are looking to upgrade a pair of non-ST primaries. I found a single 23ST, all gunked up, at Bacon's for $100, it cleaned up perfectly. I found four 32ST 3 hrs away in NJ on Craigslist, bought two for $1200. I see a single 32ST at Minneys for the same price.

Good Hunting,

Mark

 

[bgary]

I see a single 32ST at Minneys for

Is there a way to see Minney's winch-inventory online? I can see sails, but not winches.

I'm thinking (very low on the priority list) of replacing my main-halyard winch with a self-tailer.

Bruce