How fast is too fast?

[David Grimm]

While at the helm I tend to enjoy racing the boat. I've seen gps speeds of 9 and a max of 11. At the helm all seems wonderful. However when I set the autopilot and go below deck it sounds like a freight train! Often at night I visualize myself waking up floating in a pile of fiberglass splinters because I just beat her too hard.

Also up in the V-Birth is sounds like bombs going off when the water smashes against the hull. I wonder if some boats are insulated to reduce this noise or am I nuts pushing this vessel this fast across the atlantic? What is your speed limit?

 

[Bolo]

Well, I’ve not been out in the ocean on a sailboat, ever, even though I’ve been sailing for over 15 years because I sail the Chesapeake Bay out of Annapolis. But I did hear the saying more then a few times that “the boat can take more then you can.” What this actually means is anyones guess, if you take the saying literally but I’ve gone through some very sever weather and “seas” on the bay with it’s short and steep swells that often break into waves. The boat makes a big racket along with the visual shock to the rigging but I still enjoyed it and it never ever seemed “too fast” for me. Just clip on and enjoy the ride. Save your fear for when you get back to the dock.

 

[Tin Kicker]

The hull in the Ericsson's is built like the classic brick outhouse and the fiberglass is the last thing I'd be concerned with. The hull alone is far thicker than what is in Catalinas, ODays, Hunters, etc, and THEN there is the internal liner backing it up. These boats have been around the world and suffered (hopefully) more than any of us could ever do to them. I understand from older members here that the "speed limit" is going to be where control gets difficult.

That said, they are getting old, so it never hurts to make a quick inspection of the chainplates and tabbing for the bulkheads. Especially after a good pounding.

 

[Loren Beach]

Also up in the V-Birth is sounds like bombs going off when the water smashes against the hull. I wonder if some boats are insulated to reduce this noise or am I nuts pushing this vessel this fast across the atlantic? What is your speed limit?

I have done a delivery in a 38-200, doing 8 ks continuously, but we were running with it, so not noisy. Solid & comfortable boats! Our boat has powered up the WA coast into about 18 kts all day long. The 5' seas thump when they hit, but nothing unexpected. Off the wind tho, we have sailed at 10 kts for hours at a time, surfing up to 12.5, and I know of other Olson's that hit 14 kts.
EY built really good boats.
(I might be slightly biased, tho.......)

 

[Saverio]

Ericson 38 200 weekend in the Adriatic Sea with 10/12 knots of wind speed 7.9 - 8.1

 

[Christian Williams]

You press harder than I do. My goal is 6 knots for passage-making.

Yes, loud below. When a breaking crest intersects the beam, sounds like an explosion below. Chichester talked about it. Said it reminded him of wartime.

Some video remarks here on the sounds of offshore.

 

[David Grimm]

See these things come into mind your first time off shore and theres nobody there to ask. Did get me reading a couple of single handing books searching for answers. I tend to see 6 knots and say "gee weren't we doing 6.5 earlier"? Then tweak the sails and get 7 and feel quite satisfied until I go below deck for more M&Ms and yes it sounds like a war is going on.

 

[bgary]

Two thoughts...

1), GPS speed is speed over the bottom, that's different than your speed through the water. I've had GPS speeds of well over 10k in my 32-footer... but it was really 6k of "boat speed" plus 4k of favorable current. Not sure it's possible to push one of these boats to 9k "through the water" unless surfing a nice Pacific swell. So... rest assured, you're not pushing the boat past its design envelope with those numbers, your speed through the water is still probably the normal 6-7k you're used to.

2) yes, it can get loud inside. Think of it this way - outside the boat, wave noise fits into the symphony of all the noises.... but inside the boat, that same wave noise reverberates like you're inside a barrel. It's not a problem. (You should try being inside a modern racing boat, e.g., an all-carbon TP-52 - the noises are deafening! Every time someone eases a sheet on the winch it sounds like the whole boat is groaning) The nice thing is, over time you'll come to absorb the normal offshore noises of the boat, and you'll start instinctively hearing only the sounds that are "different".... which often means the wind has changed, or the sea is becoming more choppy, or something else that warrants attention. Fun stuff.

B

 

[toddster]

IDK - the smaller, older boats are probably build differently, but I've got sort of a plan to inject some foam between the hull and liner in the bow area to stiffen it up and add some insulation. Others have reported "oil canning" in the bows during ocean passages. Haven't got around to this as yet.

 

[David Grimm]

My Iridium reported 13.6. Even with a 4 knot current thats pretty fast.

 

[toddster]

It might be so, but I wouldn't get too excited about a satellite-based speed calculation unless it comes up consistently. Sometimes temporary loss of signal and such can cause the algorithm to spit out blazingly fast speeds when you suddenly pop up far from where it thinks you are. According to Garmin, I'm a world-class sprinter when the mood strikes.

 

[Christian Williams]

Hull speed of a 38 is about 7.4, given 1.34 x square root of 30.5 (LWL).

My boat surfs at 9, briefly, by GPS speed. Then slows as it climbs the front of the next wave.

The more useful reading is noon to noon position. Even a mere 144 nm is quite hard to achieve (average of 6 knots) simply because the wind tends to slack off in early morning hours. And when there's a lot of wind, speed is reduced by the sea state, or the discomfort of carrying max sail.

A working crew willing to change sails during watches can get an impressive day's run, but it's work, it breaks stuff, and it's hard to cook and sleep.

 

[David Grimm]

Christian my hips were killing me from smashing into the cabinets and stove. Cooking was out of the question on my fast days. I marked the chart each day at noon and my distance from the last. 144nm is right about there. The charts in the boat and I'm at the hotel. I'll check it tomorrow or the next. I'm in no rush to return home so I will slow it down a bit. I plan on returning Friday the 8th. Looks like I'm going to have some strong winds right on the beam.

 

[Tin Kicker]

IDK - the smaller, older boats are probably build differently, but I've got sort of a plan to inject some foam between the hull and liner in the bow area to stiffen it up and add some insulation. Others have reported "oil canning" in the bows during ocean passages. Haven't got around to this as yet.

I'd very much recommend AGAINST this. One reason is the old "If it isn't broke then don't fix it." Fiberglass can flex repeatedly without hazard.

The bigger reason to me is the potential for the foam to do extreme damage. These boats have been working the hull-liner adhesive for decades and there is so much square footage to press against that I could easily see the expanding foam break adhesive hull-liner bonds then push the liner and hull apart.

 

[toddster]

I'd very much recommend AGAINST this. One reason is the old "If it isn't broke then don't fix it." Fiberglass can flex repeatedly without hazard.

The bigger reason to me is the potential for the foam to do extreme damage. These boats have been working the hull-liner adhesive for decades and there is so much square footage to press against that I could easily see the expanding foam break adhesive hull-liner bonds then push the liner and hull apart.

Hull / liner bonds? All there are are a few places where wetted-out cloth was shoved more or less toward the corners at arms length through a locker hatch. Some made sort of a seam, some just froze in a weird curve that kinda sorta touches both sides. Mostly the two pieces just rattle against one another. I've foamed out a few annular rings around the hatches and ports that I replaced. The foam expansion didn't push the liner out - it just expanded into the void - and when that was blocked, it just ran back out. I had to put spacers in to get the constant sandwich thickness that I wanted.

Hull speed of a 38 is about 7.4, given 1.34 x square root of 30.5 (LWL).

My boat surfs at 9, briefly, by GPS speed. Then slows as it climbs the front of the next wave.

The more useful reading is noon to noon position. Even a mere 144 nm is quite hard to achieve (average of 6 knots) simply because the wind tends to slack off in early morning hours. And when there's a lot of wind, speed is reduced by the sea state, or the discomfort of carrying max sail.

A working crew willing to change sails during watches can get an impressive day's run, but it's work, it breaks stuff, and it's hard to cook and sleep.

FWIW, Evans Starzinger (I think) once published a magazine article in which he applied multiple regression analysis to several years of whole-fleet data from the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers. The model came up with overall Cruising Speed = (0.066 x SA/D)+(.051xLWL)+2.62. None of the other factors he tried could reduce variability from the model. (IDK if theoretical hull speed was tried.) I suspect that the error bars were quite large. But in other words, no characteristic of the boat could explain very much of the overall speed using real world data.

 

[Loren Beach]

Perhaps helpful/clarifying to note that my stated boat speeds are always "thru the water"... I do like my GPS plotter, and viewing the SOG helps establish an arrival prediction at a turning point or destination.

 

[Bolo]

The paddlewheel on my E32-3 has long since stopped working and I never repaired it because it kept getting clogged with marine growth even with yearly cleaning. Plus I found the the SOG information from my Garmin was more useful to me. So I pulled the speed through water gauge from the pod and replaced it with the Raymarine p70s control head which just fit. Yes, it's behind the wheel but this rarely is a problem for me reaching it.

 

[David Grimm]

My speed over water paddle wheel is brand new because last years haul out crushed it with the strap. However its never right. Most I've ever seen it indicate is 3 knots. And acording to the manufacturer it is mounted in the right location. It must be dirty now and I have to unbolt the air conditioner unit to get to it so I just let it go. Water is pretty clear here. I could dive in and check it I suppose.

 

[LameBMX]

I understand from older members here that the "speed limit" is going to be where control gets difficult.

Any chance you can point me to an older member to discuss this "speed limit"? I could have swore I lost my rudder the other evening during a good run of sailing in decent winds. I was unable to steer, but could trim the sails to control direction a bit. Turned out when I stopped, while bobbing about in the waves, i was able to visibly see the rudder when the aft rose on waves, and confirm it still worked. Rudder continued to work under motor and reefed sails (sun was setting at this point) until i got back to the dock the next morning.

 

[David Grimm]

Any chance you can point me to an older member to discuss this "speed limit"? I could have swore I lost my rudder the other evening during a good run of sailing in decent winds. I was unable to steer, but could trim the sails to control direction a bit. Turned out when I stopped, while bobbing about in the waves, i was able to visibly see the rudder when the aft rose on waves, and confirm it still worked. Rudder continued to work under motor and reefed sails (sun was setting at this point) until i got back to the dock the next morning.

When the vessel heels past 15 degrees steering falls off rapidly. This may be the issue you are having. According to a book I have. (https://www.amazon.com/Singlehanded...+handed+sailing+tips+and+tricks,aps,77&sr=8-1

Our vessels are designed to work with optimal heel of 15 degrees.