32-3 new main and sail track questions

[Puget sailor]

I’m thinking of ordering a new main for my ‘85 32-3. I’m still rocking the original one, which has been shredded and repaired by previous owners. I’d also like to go to a tides sail track system while I’m at it. Currently I’m thinking of using Precision Sails out of BC, their stuff is made in China I believe. I’m planning to avoid the low budget options and go with upgraded real world sail cloth, which moves the price needle a decent amount, but seems prudent.

It’s a Puget Sound boat, but I would not rule out some offshore adventures in the next few years, so thinking I’ll favor cruising details over lightweight and perhaps racing performance.

First question: any reason to deviate from the factory design? I have a boom kicker, and don’t use a topping lift, so I suppose additional roach is possible, but not sure why it would be desirable?
Second question: I believe I currently have 3 full length battens, possibly 4, I’ll have to check. I’m not sure if those are original or retrofits. I like them and plan to keep that design. Any reason to deviate from what’s there?
Third question: reef points. I think I have 2 now, and no ties in the sail, but there are grommets for them. I’m planning to set it up for reefing from the cockpit since I single hand a lot. Be nice to be able to do that, and not that hard to do I guess. Is there any reason to go to three reef points? I guess for serious offshore it could make sense. Inshore, I’d never use the third one. Thoughts?
Final question: Anybody know if the tides slides are on hand at sail lofts, or does one order them from tides, and send them in to the sailmakers?

Oh, I almost forgot a big one. What’s the consensus on loose foot vs how it came from Ericson? I have the original Kenyon spars. They seem to be in good shape and functional, so no plans to mess with any of that. Part of me likes the slugs on the boom so it’s easy to furl up, but I’ve never sailed a loose foot rig.

I currently have lazy jacks which are ok, but I’d like to change them so they can live on the mast when not needed, and much simplify the sail cover logistics. Plus they create a lot of places for endless Seattle rain to get past the sail cover and things can get moldy. I’m not a big fan of the look of stack packs or lines going through the sail. In a pinch, the current system is ok too.

Any other suggestions appreciated. I’ve never ordered a sail before, always just sailed with whatever old rags came with the boat, but this Ericson really likes going to windward, and I’m looking forward to being able to get a better foil shape when doing so.

 

[Christian Williams]

My new sails were put on last week, so my opinions are fresh. I'll attach the invoice (for the E381) for cloth weight and details.

--Original mainsail shape is fine. You can increase roach/extended leech for racing, and endure it snapping over the backstay every tack, but not worth it on a cruising boat.

--Battens are just a choice. Two full length is good. Four is heavier but tames the whole sail and helps with lazy jacks. I have four.

--Regarding reef points, I had three reefs and went back to two reefs. I abandoned Reef 3 because our boats sail well under genoa alone and it simplifies rigging. (I still have three reef points on the offshore sails)

--My sailmaker (a rep for UK sails) puts on the Tides slides. Yours probably will do that too, just inquire.

--Loose footed for sure. Slugs on the boom, well, they were good for roller reefing in 1968....

--I endured five years of a sail cover slotted for lazy jacks. 56 snaps on and 56 off. I am making a new sail cover without slots. The lazyjacks just pull forward and hook around the old reef horns. Then set them up after you take the sail cover off. Also, slots let water in which stains the furled sail.

Your sailmaker rep will advise on sail weight, battens, loose-footed and so on. A moment confessing to him or her your dreams and realities pays off in good advice based on the mistakes of other clients. Much (much!) depends on any potential intention to race, which of course changes everything.

As you know, Dacron is the cheapest and most long-lasting sail cloth. The shortcoming is that it's heavy and it stretches. And all the other options provide bulletproof shape in lighter weights at the expense of longevity.

I'll have a video about the new sails on YouTube in a week or so.

 

[Loren Beach]

Christian has a good synopsis. I like the "2 plus 2" batten scheme, in vogue since the early 80's. We have that on our present new main and it was on the prior UK main. I find that boats with all full battens have slightly less "flapping" when into the wind, but not that much better than our sail.
Note that the more full length battens you have, the more friction and therefore a need for a Strong track. We have no strong track, and get by fine. Our new main is a gray color North "cruising laminate" altho I forget their trick name for it, off hand. Considerably less money than a molded sail, I should note, but more than a dacron version.
We do have a UK "Lazy Cradle" split sail cover with lazy jacks, and sometime rain water can enter thru the zipper track. Not often tho.... and in the winter months we do cover the whole thing with an older full size sail cover to protect the whole thing from winter weather. (43 degrees and off and on rain today, matter of fact.)

I would also advise against a maximum-leach main, for the reasons Christian mentions. Do not be too concerned about "racing" either. When you enter a race and cross the starting line you will officially be a "racer". The other 98% of the time you just want a boat that's easy to sail and (being an Ericson!) is Fast.

Let us know how your progress along the "decision tree" is going.
Cheers,
Loren

 

[Pete the Cat]

My new sails were put on last week, so my opinions are fresh. I'll attach the invoice (for the E381) for cloth weight and details.

--Original mainsail shape is fine. You can increase roach/extended leech for racing, and endure it snapping over the backstay every tack, but not worth it on a cruising boat.

--Battens are just a choice. Two full length is good. Four is heavier but tames the whole sail and helps with lazy jacks. I have four.

--Regarding reef points, I had three reefs and went back to two reefs. I abandoned Reef 3 because our boats sail well under genoa alone and it simplifies rigging. (I still have three reef points on the offshore sails)

--My sailmaker (a rep for UK sails) puts on the Tides slides. Yours probably will do that too, just inquire.

--Loose footed for sure. Slugs on the boom, well, they were good for roller furling in 1968....

--I endured five years of a sail cover slotted for lazy jacks. 56 snaps on and 56 off. I am making a new sail cover without slots. The lazyjacks just pull forward and hook around the old reef horns. Then set them up after you take the sail cover off. Also, slots let water in which stains the furled sail.

Your sailmaker rep will advise on sail weight, battens, loose-footed and so on. A moment confessing to him or her your dreams and realities pays off in good advice based on the mistakes of other clients. Much (much!) depends on any potential intention to race, which of course changes everything.

As you know, Dacron is the cheapest and most long-lasting sail cloth. The shortcoming is that it's heavy and it stretches. And all the other options provide bulletproof shape in lighter weights at the expense of longevity.

I'll have a video about the new sails on YouTube in a week or so.

View attachment 44980

I second Christian on all his recommendations. I went to three reefs and dropped back to two with the second a little deeper than when you have three. Full battens for me, a single hander, simplify things enough to be worth it--the added weight in no way cancels the shape and convenience contributions. You can bring lazy jacks forward (as I do on my Tartan 37) or a Dutchman system (on my 32-200). The Dutchman hoist lines can be brought down and stowed in the sail cover without having to mess with snaps and holes in the mainsail cover (and saves the monofilament from UV degradation) but you will need a topping lift to secure the boom in both cases. I think that aft leading the reefing lines can be a crap shoot. Yes, I like the first clew reef aft led for sure and rigged and maybe the second for the clew, but I find that trying to lead the tack reefing aft is not helpful--I use a cunningham hook with dog bones in the cringle. Reef early before it is dangerous to get up there rather than make a spaghetti factory out of the cockpit--is my view. I think it is actually safer than having to run up to fix a mess of fouled lines. You are going to have to secure the loose sail gaskets on the second reef anyway, so prepare your harness and safety lines and go for it. I still misjudge the "reef early" issue both ways (too early and too late) after 30 years of cruising, but am actually getting better at it and realize being under canvassed and wishing I had more is better than being over canvassed and wishing I had less. Squalls and the increasing incidents of microbursts have convinced me. I got a quote from Precision that 50% more than what I eventually paid for a local sailmaker who has since gone out of business. I liked the Precision customer service and apparent quality, but they seemed just beyond what I was willing to pay for value they presented--they give a lot of sails to Youtubers for free for those endorsements--good advertising we pay for. Sails at some point are sails and the big lofts in Sri Lanka, Barbados and elsewhere are making the same sails with the same programs for all the brand names no matter what they tell you. I ordered some special changes from the stock Doyle Erticson main and got the standard cut and little attention to my amendments for a very low price. I would pay more for a loft that would actually produce the sail specifications I requested, but not the cost of the quote I got from Precision. I had better luck with my local lofts for other recent sails but they have gone out of business. I think we are facing a disappearance of local lofts and that getting something other than standard or special is going to be very expensive in the future. And Christian's note on sail cloth is spot on. The exotic stuff falls apart under UV and chafe and the other stuff stretches a bit if your are hardcore racer. Accept science and fact and make your choice. But these are just opinions.

 

[goldenstate]

Slides for the Tides system are included with your order. They have pins so that you can transfer the slides between sails. Your sailmaker will probably know how big to make the attachment loops.

Tides Marine Sailtrack 1: How to order

sailboatrefit.com

Tides Marine Sailtrack 3: Installing sail slides

sailboatrefit.com

 

[Frank Langer]

I had great service from the UK Sail loft in Sidney, BC. They came to Nanaimo where I live, 100 km. trip, to measure, made a very nice mainsail and Genoa. I had ordered a tri radial Genoa but a crosscut mainsail for budget reasons. They phoned two days later saying they could make me a tri radial mainsail too at no extra cost because they were trying to get rid of an extra roll of sail cloth. Very good service and quality and the tri radial is a much stronger sail than a crosscut dacron. Both sails were built on site in Sidney, they installed the sails to check the fit (it was perfect) and they did a free check a year later.
Frank

 

[haytor]

You can't go wrong with a UK Loft or Sail, they are very experienced and its a Loft organization run by Sailmakers not a Corporation.
There ae lots of lofts around so service is not an issue....when ordering from an Internet sailmaker with no Loft not even for service tah farms your sail out to the lowest bidder and you get what you pay for!
All those YouTube sailors got something in return for buying and promoting the Internet Sails...when I watch with a critical Eye they are not standing up to the use!
Get RBS Epoxy Battens from your sailmaker they are made so they can be shipped anywhere by regular UPS so cheap to ship, they include a batten splice box that is easy to assemble... enhance the shape designed into the sail lighter and will never break...stay away from Round FG Battens...they are crap good for awnings!

 

[Christian Williams]

In case of interest, here's a rough assembly of my sail installation [replaced with final version]:

 

[goldenstate]

In case of interest, here's a rough assembly of my sail installation, no VO, audio levels uncorrected. Skip through stuff about pumps and buzzer. It won't be complete until I can get some sailing footage.

A veritable Rice Krispies box of new Dacron snap, crackle, and pop.

 

[Puget sailor]

Thanks everyone, fantastic info as always!

I’ve noticed Precision leans toward discount pricing at certain times of year, and this is the time they discount the most, so I’ll see where that comes in. I know they have a “dedicated” loft in mainland China. But I suspect almost all the big sailmakers are using offshore labor. I spent solve time this morning trying to figure out if UK Sailmakers is doing same. Lots of talk of local lofts, but not clear they are sewing up sails there vs rep and service. There is not one in Seattle, but there is in Sydney BC, which is also where Precision is run from. I like Sydney, but it's not easy to bring the boat up there, and not likely necessary.

Having just consulted with the Precision rep, he has me thinking a triradial main might not be a bad option. The price is not much different than an upgraded cross cut. The rationale seems to be, based on Puget sound seasonal cruising without extensive UV exposure of warmer climates, these things:

Triradial is capable of better shape at the start.
Triradial is more likely to retain shape longer than crosscut because it's shape is dependent on the weave of the cloth for stretch resistance rather than fabric coating in the case of cross cut weave. (last bit my interpretation based on research not Precision's explanation exactly)

To be honest, I've never obsessed much over sail shape because I never had boats and rigs where there was much to be had, but the E32 clearly wants to have a good airfoil and wants to go upwind, and I can tell from my very blown out original main how much potential is currently being lost. It just makes sense to me that the triradial would work a bit better when new and lot better after 5 or 10 years, especially if used mildly which is about how it goes up here in the PNW where the season is not really year round. It's in the 30's now, and I'm finding myself not that tempted.

Other notes from my consultation:
Full length battens which I have and like, are not a problem if going to triradial. Ideally the don't dictate shape, just tamp down flutter and make sail control on the boom a easier. Both good.
Tapered battens are not simple, and unlikely to be worthwhile for my intended uses (though I might be tempted to play with making some down the line)
Draft stripes highly recommended even with full battens (I was soft on aesthetics, thinking full battens might be telling enough, but sailmaker advises draft stripes, and I have to admit, whenever I see them on a boat my eye goes immediately to that line checking shape. So I think I'll go for it.

I'm also planning to add Tides track, and Precision can both provide for it, and sell me the track system, which seems to be the same price as getting it from Tides, so one stop shopping. I ordered the track checking gauges from Tides this morning.

The black friday season sale price for either triradial or upgraded level of crosscut is about the same, roughly $2,150.00 which seems pretty reasonable. The cheap version of crosscut, which I suspect mainly comes down to cheaper cloth is at $1,800.00 but I'm not planning to go that route. Those prices include 4 full length battens, two reef points, loose foot, but not yet the insignia which they can do for another 90 bucks, and seems "necessary". If only because as a kid I loved being able to learn the different insignias from books.

Another note on the triradial question, since there seems to be lots of differing opinion there, I have not see to much from people who had triradial and regret it, most of the people who are against it seem to be coming from a traditionalist perspective. Not sure if that's true though. As a bit of a traditionalist myself, I like the look of crosscut better. But the Ericson, to me, is bit of a performance design, so I feel I can live with the look, especially if it confers some durability for windward performance. But I'm happy to hear any challenges to my conclusions which are nebulous at best! Dollar wise, it's basically the same with better quality cross cut fabric used.

Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

All sounds fine to me. I considered triradial, but it looks funny.

I like the Ericson insignia and the model number on the sail (32-3, 381 etc).

What boat do you have? Put model and year in the signature line, engine too, it helps others to know.

 

[Puget sailor]

They do look funny! But I think I’ll give it a go anyway most likely. I still think UV covers on headsails look funny, but now that I have roller furling up there, I’m never going back to hanks, even though they are pretty satisfying to snap into place. I’ll add my boat to the signature line too, good idea. It’s a 32-3.

 

[Frank Langer]

They do look funny! But I think I’ll give it a go anyway most likely. I still think UV covers on headsails look funny, but now that I have roller furling up there, I’m never going back to hanks, even though they are pretty satisfying to snap into place. I’ll add my boat to the signature line too, good idea. It’s a 32-3.

I have tri radial sails, and it didn't take long to adjust to that slightly different look. I think they will wear better and last much longer.
Frank

 

[David Grimm]

Christian, 9.5% tax. Yikes!!! The sails look great. What lazy jack system do you use? The Dutchman system failed me many times now. Time for a change.

 

[Puget sailor]

I thought I’d post a follow up on my mainsail quest that started this post, for my 32-3. I started with a quote from Precision out of Sidney BC, which seems to do a decent job of managing order flow to some offshore lofts. Not clear if they have one fully captured or not. I also requested some online quotes from UK, also from Sidney BC (my local UK loft, they have many). I requested one from Doyle too, not sure from where. Doyle was higher by a substantial amount. Precision with Black Friday season discount was quite reasonable. UK landed in between.

As someone with some historic east coast garment manufacturing experience (in my grandfathers factory before it all went offshore about when my Ericson was in production) I certainly appreciate the efficiency of a well run high volume operation. It’s entirely possible in the right hands, be they in China, Sri Lanka, or wherever, that a high quality sail could be reliably made at substantial savings. That’s what brought me toward Precision.

In the end, I’ve decided to go with UK, which will be made in UK’s Sidney loft, not offshored, and by people working in a country with actual human rights and some real connection to the finished product, or so I hope. I also appreciate that they use first world bits and pieces, an obvious place that an offshore loft could save some money. Along with “little things” like thread. Not saying it’s necessarily worse over there, but who knows? Who do we trust? The UK sail will cost more, but not outrageously more, since they have a small discount running, and we’re willing to knock off another 5% to get my order. In the end it will still be about a 25% premium, but I feel that this is a rare case where there is a clear choice on these matters, which I think has as much to do with the regime that’s being supported as the product. Often enough (talking to you Apple, that I’m typing this on) we don’t even have the choice. I also worry a bit about an unexpected delay from a Chinese loft due to zero Covid shutdowns. Seems to be a bit messy over there right now.

I was also swayed by the UK quote including RBS tapered battens, which was discouraged or not even really an option with Precision. I think they will perform better in light air, which we have a lot of in Puget Sound. I’m sticking with the same 4 full length batten layout my old original sail has (retrofitted), and adding tides sail track to ease the up and down which is the only real gripe about the battens now. Also going with the triradial sail, two reef points, and the now ubiquitous loose foot.

For anyone who’s curious about doing the tides track same time as a sail, the lofts seem to be very familiar and accommodating, and can provide the tides track as part of the sail order for the same price as getting it directly from Tides. So I’m doing that, getting it through UK. Seems like if there are any issues, better to have the loft in on it from the get go.

A note about the RBS tapered battens, they apparently don’t coil them, and have an interlocking plastic splice socket fitting of sorts. But they seem to have an arrangement with a freight outfit that ships up to 12’ long items for about $100.00 so worth it to me to avoid seeing any splice connectors up on the sail. Not sure if that shipping cost is everywhere, or just because I’m not that far from them, they’re in Oregon and I’m outside Seattle. Road trip also an option. They will be drop shipped to me from RBS, but ordered by the UK loft as part of my sail order.

If I were in a different situation financially, the quote from Precision would be very compelling, and no doubt would be a big upgrade over my 37 year old repaired and modified sail. Especially during the holiday discount season. But this is something I may not do much in this life, and I’ll enjoy sailing under a sail made by people living in a place I’ve been to. And if it needs any tweaking, I know where to find them, a good excuse for a little cruise north

 

[Kenneth K]

The Dutchman system failed me many times now. Time for a change.

Interesting….what problems have you had with the Dutchman?

 

[David Grimm]

Hey Kenneth, just around town they work ok. However when you start long distance voyages that go days on end, around day 3 or 4 of non stop sailing the lines wear through and break. Never really gave me a problem just day sailing. However when they break there is no fixing out at sea on my boat with the bimini in the way and stuff. I plan on making it down the coast to Florida at some point and I won't head out with them again.

 

[Frank Langer]

Puget Sailor,
I just visited UK Sails in Sidney today while here on a short holiday from Nanaimo. Owner Stuart solved a quick problem for me on the sails we bought a couple years ago--the staff there are always helpful. I have been very pleased with my sails from UK Sails, Sidney.
I'm also pleased to hear that you decided on the tri radial sail, as I think it will last much longer and hold its shape better.
Frank

 

[Prairie Schooner]

. . .
I'm also pleased to hear that you decided on the tri radial sail, as I think it will last much longer and hold its shape better.
. . .

Hi Frank,
Why do the tri-radial sails last longer? The question is kind of academic, as we ordered a crosscut main and tri-raidal jib. But I'm always interested in learning more.
Jeff

 

[Prairie Schooner]

I thought I’d post a follow up on my mainsail quest that started this post, for my 32-3. . . .
. . .
In the end, I’ve decided to go with UK, which will be made in UK’s Sidney loft, not offshored, and by people working in a country with actual human rights and some real connection to the finished product, or so I hope. . . .

. . . . But this is something I may not do much in this life, and I’ll enjoy sailing under a sail made by people living in a place I’ve been to. And if it needs any tweaking, I know where to find them, a good excuse for a little cruise north

Thanks for the detailed info Frank. I'll be very interested in how you feel about your choices by the end of next season. I'm not sure we made the best choices with our recent order, but it's got to be better than the ragged old sails we've used in our first year with our boat. Gotta love that crinkle sound.
Jeff