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Totally perplexing wind instrument problem

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Hi,
This problem has me and the factory techs at Raymarine stumped, so I really need some good advice.
My ST40 wind instrument began showing erratic readings, then fixed itself, but after a few more day sails, the wind gradually reduced to zero on the display, although the wind vane was spinning freely.
The Raymarine tech said the small circuit board in the mast top had failed. I found a replacement in England, worked through a challenging installation, and it worked as normal for about 6 day sails. Then the display went from normal wind speed to gradual reduction to zero over ten minutes, first the apparent wind, then the true wind, with both eventually showing zero.
Raymarine tech said my display circuit board had failed, no longer interpreting the signal from the mast head correctly.
I found a replacement display on ebay, and on installation the display appeared to show correct wind speed for about five minutes, then both apparent and true wind went back to zero.
So I know the wind vane is turning freely at the mast head, the mast head circuit board is connecting to the display at the pedestal (it shows dashes, not zero, when not connected) and the display is getting power.
Raymarine techs then had me check power to the unit power source (12.59 volts), then showed 11.22 volts at the display itself, 6.8 at the wires coming from the mast head (tech said it should be 6 to 7 volts, so ok). At that point he gave up, no further advice and they don't service these any more.
Today I turned it on again, and it appeared to show proper wind speed, both true and apparent, for about a minute, then both numbers returned to zero.
The only parts to this system are the spinning wind vane, the mast head circuit board, the wire running down the mast to the display, and the display. The mast head circuit board and display are new. I did have to lengthen the wire at the mast head by a foot to make a proper connection. These wires are tiny, about 22 awg and the foot length I added is 16 awg as I couldn't get 22 awg at the time. I crimped on the extra foot with good ratchet crimps, and soldered that new wire to the mast head circuit board.
I have no idea why I'm getting zero on the display, or what I can do to restore proper wind speed readings.
A new wind instrument is really expensive, and most require running a new wire down the mast, which means raising the mast cause its deck stepped and not accessible at deck level without raising the mast.
I would appreciate any thoughts or advice you may have.
Frank
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
Just so happens that I’m putting the finishing touches on a complete instrument upgrade from Datamarine to Raymarine on my E32-3 using the newer generation of instruments that you have on your boat, so this posting really caught my eye. The one thing I’d like you to clear up is your statement that the wind speed readings on your ST40 reduced “gradually“. What do you mean by “gradually“? Were the readings going on and off rapidly and then going to zero? Seems to me that with a wind instrument it would be hard to pickup on a gradual failure since wind speeds can vary. Did the wind speed and direction fail simultaneously or speed first and then directio?

But my first impression was that there is a problem with that extra 12” you added to the mast head cable at the top. I’ve had crimped wire connections fail sometimes when I thought I had a good crimp but the voltage drop was intermittent because the crimp, especially on a small gauge wire going to a larger gauge, wasn’t tight enough. In those cases I folded the thinner wire over itself to fill in the connector better giving more wire to crimp. Shorts like this are difficult to trace down but I’d start with examining that connection at the top of the mast first. Maybe you need a soldered connection up there which I know would be difficult because it’s at the top of the mast. Very interested in reading about your eventual solution to this vexing problem.
 

Jerry VB

E32-3 / M-25XP
My observation with my Raymarine wind instrument is that it has a very long duration filter function. When I turn it on when the wind is blowing hard, the readout it will take several seconds for the readout to slowly from 0 to true (average) wind speed. I expect this is what Frank is observing; the readout no longer is receiving the signal from the masthead but, because of the long filter constant, it takes several seconds for the readout to go to zero.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thank for your replies. Bolo, I was very careful doing those crimps, and from earlier experience I know that if the connection is faulty the display will show dashes, not zero. Also, the voltage of that wire at the display end was 6.8, within the 6 to 7 range the tech noted.
Also, the problem first happened before I added the extra foot or replaced any parts - - first erratic readings for a few minutes, then readings dropping incrementally to zero, like from 12,10.8, 9.2, 7.8, 6.3, gradually to zero. Oddly, apparent wind dropped before the true wind, maybe two minutes later.
The problem is the same from the first time to when I replaced the mast circuit board, worked properly for about 6 day sails (with crimped wire extension in place), then same problem, so I replaced the display, had what look like good readings for about 5 minutes, then gradual reduction in the numbers til zero. Yesterday when I turned it on it showed numbers for a few minutes, then gradual return to zero. That's what is so puzzling! Aside from the spinning wind vane there are no other moving parts, so nothing could be intermittently loose.
Thanks for any further thoughts or suggestions.
Frank
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Today I decided to start the wind instrument again and it began to work properly, for about five minutes, then gradually returned to zero again. So both the mast head and display circuit boards work initially, but something is causing it to give up and only show zero on the display. So frustrating!!! :(
Frank
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
Today I decided to start the wind instrument again and it began to work properly, for about five minutes, then gradually returned to zero again. So both the mast head and display circuit boards work initially, but something is causing it to give up and only show zero on the display. So frustrating!!! :(
Frank
Yes, it is frustrating and I’m at a loss as to what else to suggest after reading your comments about making the wire connections and the baffling way the gauge is responding. I’ve had very good help from Raymarine support and I can’t imagine that this problem you’re having hasn’t happened to someone else before. The answer is out there, the problem is finding it. If I think of anything else I’ll let you know.

I did find this link from Raymarine on the procedures for testing the mast head unit but you may already have seen this in your research to solve your problem.

Update: I think you’re using a Rotavecta with your ST40? If so I saw a vid on YouTube about a sailor who was having similar problems and he traced it down to dust and debris in the Rotavecta above the circuit board. He thought it might be dried up grease from the shaft bearing. He also noticed that the shaft seemed “tight” and so he applied lube to it. Dust and debris could be dropping onto the sensor on the circuit board and a binding shaft maybe causing your problems but that’s just a guess on my part.
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, Bolo! I really appreciate you trying to help me solve this. I had seen the you tube video about cleaning the transducer pod and did try that first, but no change, so then on the advice of Raymarine tech I replaced the mast head transducer pod. And it worked great for about 6 day sails, with the crimped foot long wire extension in place.
So when it failed after that, the tech concluded it must be the instrument display, which also contains a circuit board, but replacing that didn't help.
And now the fact that when I turned it on yesterday, it worked for a short while, then went back to zero, is so puzzling cause there are no moving parts other than the vane itself that could loosen.
Thanks for the test article which I had not seen before, though the Raymarine tech and I did lots of those with me on the end of the phone. He really tried to help, and talked with his repair guy too.
I'm hauling the boat today for bottom paint, zincs, prop lubrication, etc, but once that's done I'll try to run thru all those tests again, so thanks again for that article.
Any further ideas are much appreciated!
Frank
 

Pete the Cat

Member III
Have you considered that there is a wire crossed at one of the connections? I am thinking something connected and crossed, not just chafe. Could be chafe inside the mast. Graspiing at options you must have already considered.
 

Jerry VB

E32-3 / M-25XP
According to the diagnostics Bob posted, the red wire going up the mast is suppose to be approximately 8v, steady. You indicated you measured 6.8v, so it is somewhat lower than expected, although within the Raymarine tech's expectations... or was the 6.8v from measuring between the red wire and the blue wire (per the diagnostics) which would more closely meet the diagnostics expectations.

When you first power on the instrument and it is working, is the supply voltage (red wire) closer to 8v and then drops over time, causing the sensor to stop working?

Have you done the Rotavecta diagnostics where you put your red multimeter probe on the red wire (8v nominal) and black probe on the tach wire (blue), ideally on a very light wind day so the sensor is rotating very slowly and verify the reading flips between two voltages (~7.5v and ~2.8v)?

The diagnostics indicate the Rotavecta signal is a "Constant-current supply and signal".

What that means is that the display unit produces a fixed current (probably around 2-4mA) which both powers the Rotavecta sensor and also is the means for the sensor to transmit the signal back to the display unit. The sensor switches (what looks like) a resistance on and off between the blue wire and ground, causing the voltage to change (E=IR, but I is constant, and R is switched between two values so E varies between two voltages).

You should also be able to set your meter to read milliamps, disconnect the blue wire, and put your meter between the blue wire (black probe) and the connector (red probe). Your meter should read a (nearly) constant current regardless of the spinning of the anemometer - probably 2-4mA but it may be as high as 20mA.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Frank,
I have seen behavior similar to what you report on my more complex Raymarine installation. I installed a new masthead transducer, the ITC-5, an ST50 wind direction and speed display, an i70 display and e7D chartplotter on the network. All have shown erratic wind data simultaneously (counting up to 50+ knots and back down), and more recently zero speed readings with the directional needle frozen. I don't have a solution, either. I haven't done any replacement or extensive troubleshooting. The problem had been intermittent until last season when it didn't work at all. The equipment was purchased in 2014 and installed in 2015.

Bolo, thanks for posting the Wind Transducer troubleshooting link. I'm going to try that.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks for this great information, guys. I just hauled the boat today for bottom paint, etc. so I won't be able to do more diagnostic work till next week. But I'll report back on my progress. Thanks again!!
Frank
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
UPDATE:
Since my last post I hauled my E30+ which I do every two years to apply bottom paint, check all thru hulls, cutless bearing, propeller, etc. It all went very well--no blisters, hull looks great, keel joint is solid, rudder is good with no extra play, cutless bearing is good, propeller is greased and working well, bottom is painted, hull waxed and boat re-launched. It's so nice when it all goes well!

I then spent the past two weeks visiting kids and grandkids in another province, returning home yesterday. Today I had planned to start checking all the connections and voltages in my problematic Raymarine wind instrument, as some of you recommended above. It would work for about 5 minutes, then gradually reduce to zero even though the wind vane was turning and nothing had changed. This occurred despite having replaced the circuit board at the mast head and the display instrument at the helm.

However, the wind and weather today was too nice, so I decided to go sailing instead and put the wind instrument issue on hold til tomorrow. I sailed for about three hours in winds which varied between 5 and 15 knots, and THE WIND INSTRUMENT WORKED PERFECTLY THE WHOLE TIME!! So it seems all the components are working as they should and the wire connections are ok. I can only guess that maybe over the last few cooler, rainier months here on the BC coast maybe some moisture got into some part to disrupt normal operation. I am still a bit puzzled, as I have not previously had this wind instrument problem in the 16 years I've owned the boat. Hopefully it will stay operational, otherwise I'll have to get back to problem solving.
Frank
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
It's a rare day when a problem fixes itself, enjoy your good fortune, even if temporary!
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
UPDATE:
Since my last post I hauled my E30+ which I do every two years to apply bottom paint, check all thru hulls, cutless bearing, propeller, etc. It all went very well--no blisters, hull looks great, keel joint is solid, rudder is good with no extra play, cutless bearing is good, propeller is greased and working well, bottom is painted, hull waxed and boat re-launched. It's so nice when it all goes well!

I then spent the past two weeks visiting kids and grandkids in another province, returning home yesterday. Today I had planned to start checking all the connections and voltages in my problematic Raymarine wind instrument, as some of you recommended above. It would work for about 5 minutes, then gradually reduce to zero even though the wind vane was turning and nothing had changed. This occurred despite having replaced the circuit board at the mast head and the display instrument at the helm.

However, the wind and weather today was too nice, so I decided to go sailing instead and put the wind instrument issue on hold til tomorrow. I sailed for about three hours in winds which varied between 5 and 15 knots, and THE WIND INSTRUMENT WORKED PERFECTLY THE WHOLE TIME!! So it seems all the components are working as they should and the wire connections are ok. I can only guess that maybe over the last few cooler, rainier months here on the BC coast maybe some moisture got into some part to disrupt normal operation. I am still a bit puzzled, as I have not previously had this wind instrument problem in the 16 years I've owned the boat. Hopefully it will stay operational, otherwise I'll have to get back to problem solving.
Frank
Like I wrote before…..haunted!
 

Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
Bolo, I was very careful doing those crimps
Frank, FWIW I had a similar issue on a car with the shifter wire loom. I had to replace the shifter and had to splice 8 22ga wires going to it. I used crimps and was sure all were good and tight. It worked flawless for about 6 months and then I started to have intermittent issues which gradually occurred with more frequency. So after checking everything else I could I revisited the crimps. I cut the wires again and this time I stripped them all back about 3/4" and twisted the connections together, rubbed some dielectric grease on the bare wire connections and heat shrink over that. No issues since, that was 4+ years ago. That tiny wire is very difficult to crimp and not get moisture related corrosion which will test fine for continuity but after it loads up you get voltage drops. If you do the "twist" method don't forget to slide your heat shrink tubes on to the conductors before hand.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Frank, FWIW I had a similar issue on a car with the shifter wire loom. I had to replace the shifter and had to splice 8 22ga wires going to it. I used crimps and was sure all were good and tight. It worked flawless for about 6 months and then I started to have intermittent issues which gradually occurred with more frequency. So after checking everything else I could I revisited the crimps. I cut the wires again and this time I stripped them all back about 3/4" and twisted the connections together, rubbed some dielectric grease on the bare wire connections and heat shrink over that. No issues since, that was 4+ years ago. That tiny wire is very difficult to crimp and not get moisture related corrosion which will test fine for continuity but after it loads up you get voltage drops. If you do the "twist" method don't forget to slide your heat shrink tubes on to the conductors before hand.
Thanks, Dave! If it stops working, I'll redo those crimp connections as you suggest before I do any further problem solving.
Frank
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
Just a thought. Heat buildup has caused problems in some systems on my boat. as the system warms, the connection degrades.
 
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