Bilge Flood, Dripless Shaft Seal Suspected

[Frank Langer]

I ordered two screw sets @ $5 each. Judging from the number of (positive) reviews, it is apparently pretty common for PSS seals to require subsequent adjustment. Owners report development of spray from the rotor, which suggests the screws can loosen over time despite proper installation.

Christian,
I think it's wise to have spare parts, but I've had a PSS shaft seal on our boat for 22 years, replaced the bellows once, but have never had the set screws fail or loosen. I did use blue locktite as they recommend. While I'm aware of some reports of problems with the shaft seal, ours has been great during all this time.
Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

Subsequent adjustment after initial installation. Not a complaint, just something sometimes needed.

 

[Dave G.]

Owners report development of spray from the rotor

They can also get debris stuck on the face which will cause them to lose full surface contact. Usually just requires a "burping" to clear. I have not had any issue with loosening as it's as tight as it was when installed. I elected to use a locking collar too so maybe that has helped.

 

[K2MSmith]

Arrived at the boat Friday to find the bilge brimming, which is unprecedented. My daughter Alex was with me and we commenced pumping out, which took the Whale and the diaphragm pump nearly 40 minutes. The 38 bilge is relatively deep and long.

I quickly discovered that the auto function of the Water Witch 101 electronic float switch had failed. I figured bad WW reviews had caught up to me, but it was only a failed butt connector after five years of service.

So I have a working auto bilge pump again.

The greater issue is, what happened? I can only guess it was the dripless shaft seal. This new unit was installed last year by an expensive boatyard. I will send the initial clip from the video below to the boatyard for comment, and try to get them to come to the boat and inspect their work. Frankly it looks OK to me. Maybe someone will comment on whether the pressure of the bellows on the rotating plate seems adequate.

Why would the dripless flood when it never has before? Well, I changed the zinc on the heat exchanger last week, and in flopping around down there I likely banged and dislodged the bellows. I usually do. Maybe that was the cause, although I don't know why it would continue to leak after temporary interference was over.

Of course it's Fourth of July weekend, which is always when such issues arise. I'll have to check the bilge daily until I can get some support and do the real troubleshooting.

This video is a temp, with incomplete narration, but you'll see what's going on.

I have a webcam ( made by “blink” ) inside the cabin that has a view of the bilge ( I leave one of the floor covers off ) . It’s nice to have because I can see the bilge and interior remotely from anywhere with my iPhone and I can zoom in on the live view and see any water in the bilge . Then I can at least watch my boat sink from afar I’m not manic about checking but it was nice to be able to see the boat while I was on vacation. There is also a mode where I can set it to do motion detection, so it acts like a security system. Since I have a T-Mobile hotspot on the boat , I’m thinking also of getting one of those wi-fi water level detectors that can send me a text if the water goes above a certain level .

 

[Puget sailor]

The specification for pressure from the bellows is in the form of a measurement of length after compressed, included in the shaft seal install instructions. It varies by the size of the seal. So it’s possible to verify if it’s set up properly for a new seal by the yard. Even when correct, it’s not that much pressure because the water pressure inside is also pushing the bellows away from the disc. According to the logs on my boat, and the measurements, mine was set up too tight. It’s over 10 years old and due for replacement due to age. The previous owner noted it was giving off some dark gray crud when new, and emailed PSS about it. He even left me a sample of the crud inside a piece of scotch tape in the log! It seems to have caused no harm and there is plenty of carbon left on the wear face of the seal, but it’s time for an new one next haul out due to age. I guess my point is, a little too much pressure might be better than too little. Even so, I’d say mine now requires very little effort to burp when in the water, maybe 1/4 of a pound of force is all. I think it’s the 1” shaft version. Boat is a 32-3. If I push on the vent tube even a tiny bit when it’s spinning it will leak some. But normal operation it’s bone dry pretty much. I leave a blue shop towel sheet under it as a tell.

I’ve found two things interesting. If the vent pipe on the thing gets dislodged, it’s puts some sideways strain on the seal area making it easier to leak. If recent work was done in that area, I’d suspect that. Want no lateral pressure from that vent tube! Needs to be somewhat secured overhead so it’s own weight can’t flop it around. But enough give that engine vibration is accommodated too. Soft hose is better than stiff I’d say.

The other thing I found this spring after not running the engine for months, some salt crystals formed around the outer edge of the bellows on the disc face, and when running it would spit all over as the bellows side was jostled by the crystals. In the end I carefully grabbed the bellows with the engine and shaft running at idle speed, pushed it into the sealing disc, and worked it around off center so it would scour off the salt crystals. Basically just pushed the parts together and held it slightly off center so it could clean the periphery of the disc maybe 1/16” all around. Tight as a drum since then for 3 months.

I too keep a web camera on board when absent for any length of time. Part of my morning coffee routine, make sure no water above the floorboards, no terrorist attacks, then second cup. Wyze cams available at Amazon and Home Depot work great. They do need wifi at your boat, which my club has on the docks. Power either through 120v with what looks like a phone charger they come with, or any 12volt usb power source. The cameras use usb power. Even the pan tilt model is pretty cheap. Been wanting to add one outside under the dodger too, just to enjoy the view and make sure no otters are partying in the cockpit!

 

[Christian Williams]

If the vent pipe on the thing gets dislodged, it’s puts some sideways strain on the seal area making it easier to leak.

Timely observation in my case. See related thread:

Slow leak aft [Dripless Shaft Seal]

Hello, I have an E32-2 Been happy to live with a mostly dry bilge sans big rain blowing in the vents. Of recent, the bilge pump runs a bit more than normal. Maybe every 2 days. I have a pss seal and though I can reach it, as you all know that have a boat like mine, I cannot see it drip and...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Pete the Cat]

I really do not like PSS units. They work fine for awhile, but can leave you in a very bad place if they fail. Don't ask how I learned this.

 

[Alan Gomes]

I really do not like PSS units. They work fine for awhile, but can leave you in a very bad place if they fail. Don't ask how I learned this.

So, Ray....how did you learn this?

 

[bsangs]

Tis’ the season for dripless shaft seal issues apparently. Mine’s been dripping for a few weeks, and upon closer inspection it’s been highly suggested I get it replaced before going to Block Island in August. Apparently the vibrations from a smaller engine like mine can cause premature wear. Just another reason to be cognizant of keeping my engine in her happy RPM space which results in very minimal vibration.

 

[Nick J]

Bsangs,

How old is your dripless, engine, and engine mounts?

 

[bsangs]

Engine is from 2003, and new engine mounts were installed around 2015, according to previous owner(s), when he changed to a folding Max Prop. Dripless is also from 2015.

 

[ConchyDug]

Adjusting the valves to spec will smooth an engine out and improve starting, power...etc.

The alternative to the PSS is the Tides seal

Propeller Shaft Seals Archives - Tides Marine | Marine Industry Products

www.tidesmarine.com

If failure occurs on my PSS I'd be inclined to install one.

 

[Nick J]

Engine is from 2003, and new engine mounts were installed around 2015, according to previous owner(s), when he changed to a folding Max Prop. Dripless is also from 2015.

That's interesting. I've heard they have reduced the maintenance interval quite a bit of the years to cover themselves, but also heard the seals last much longer than the current 6 year advised interval. your 8 years of service falls right between the 10 year and 6 year intervals, so maybe there's less fudge factor in their than I thought. Good data point for everyone to consider.

Anyone know the lifespan of engine mounts? I just changed the original mounts on my 3YM20 from 2006. The front ones were good, but the back ones were compressed and coming apart. I think it was mainly due to the exhaust elbow leaking on them, but not positive.

 

[bsangs]

Adjusting the valves to spec will smooth an engine out and improve starting, power...etc.

The alternative to the PSS is the Tides seal

Propeller Shaft Seals Archives - Tides Marine | Marine Industry Products

www.tidesmarine.com

If failure occurs on my PSS I'd be inclined to install one.

That's the one (blue) I have that needs to be replaced. EDIT: An older model of that type, I assume.

 

[David Grimm]

I follow Capt.Q. Yacht Hunter. Here is an excerpt from an old pro Walter Schulz owner operator Shannon Yachts. Check out 24:00

I'll be keeping my stuffing box!

 

[bsangs]

I follow Capt.Q. Yacht Hunter. Here is an excerpt from an old pro. Check out 24:00

I'll be keeping my stuffing box!

What a hoot that guy is. "Titanic!" "Hiroshima!" "This is a bomb!" He must be fun at parties.

But if dripless shafts were as dangerous as he opines, wouldn't there be a rash of stories about them sinking boats?

 

[Pete the Cat]

I think dripless shafts are fine for most sailors. The boatyards love them because, if they are competently installed, you go out of the boatyard with an expensive (love that markup) device that probably will not give you problems for years--it requires no break in like other stuffing box solutions. Most folks won't own their boats long enough to have trouble with them before something else requires digging into the drive train for more work. The bellows on the modern units are much better than the old ones and boatyards have become more skilled at installation over the years. The problem I have with them is that when something goes wrong--a leak or a spray--you might not immediately note it. And the things cannot be repaired at sea. I had a delivery many years ago where we were far offshore and the seal started putting a fine spray all over the engine until it started to leak enough to draw our attention to the problem. We wrapped a towel around the thing and headed for a boatyard a 3 day delay--just to keep the engine from being sprayed with salt mist. If I was going offshore for any amount of time, I would not have one because it cannot be fixed under way. There have been catastrophic failures, but they are rare.
Having said that, most folks do not do big offshore passages, and most folks do not want to monitor or pack a traditional stuffing box--though they can be adjusted and repacked underway. I have used the dripless clay and black synthetic packing for 30 years on my boats, but it requires a break in period and some initial adjustment to get it perfect and I think most boaters would not go through that effort. The boatyards cannot recommend this stuff because they are not going to be with you during break in. But once set and broken in it lasts for years. The stuff is used by the CG, the military and the lobster folks (from whom I learned about it) and it is trouble free once set.
So there is a challenge here and no perfect solution. Just my opinion.

 

[Alan Gomes]

I follow Capt.Q. Yacht Hunter. Here is an excerpt from an old pro Walter Schulz owner operator Shannon Yachts. Check out 24:00

I'll be keeping my stuffing box!

How in the world did it take that guy "a few hours" to track down the source of the leak? It should have been pretty obvious!

 

[Loren Beach]

At about the 25 min mark the video really lets the "expert" bloviate. He has opinions mixed with attitudes.
He layers on a lot of excitement, and gives the impression that he is 100% right. All the time. The beard helps, too!

(I have watched a lot of the Capt Q videos and do enjoy the entertainment, but have always viewed them with caution as far as education is concerned.)
I prefer Ray's take on this in post reply 37. It's helpful to remember that all of these systems have failure points and all can suffer from failings in the original install work, and subsequent preventative maintenance failures. True of every 'system' on our boats.

And Alan makes a great point. We also check our bilge often when on board; just basic caution. We once found it flooded with green liquid (!) when the temp gauge rose some and the Admiral immediately checked he bilge.
I shut the engine down and slowly ghosted back under sail to the marina, getting a tow the last 50 yards. It turned out that the coolant hose had popped off the HE !
That was an interesting day. After getting a ride to an old hardware store we found a replacement hose on a dusty display rack, and were on our way a day later. We met some new friends, too. Small towns are neat that way.

 

[Christian Williams]

I carry thick latex cloth (McMaster-Carr) and have practiced wrapping it around a "leaking" dripless, to be secured with hose clamps. Sunbrella cloth might be even better at stopping or reducing a leak offshore.

You could still use the engine to charge batteries, just not put it in gear. But we are sailboats.

I admit such shaft seals need attention and awareness, but also true of many components of our old boats.