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E-35 Captain gunned down in Honduras
This is the web side of sailing adventures of Captain Milan aboard the sailing vessel ADENA - a 1977 Ericson 35 Mark II sailboat.
http://adena.ca/index.html
http://adena.ca/index.html
EGregerson
Member III
Sad
This is really unfortunate and appalling. A terrible end to one who just wanted to enjoy his boat and sailing.
This is really unfortunate and appalling. A terrible end to one who just wanted to enjoy his boat and sailing.
sleepingsquirrel
Junior Member
I'm sad as well for the survivor and the terror she must have endured during this time. I recently followed a long thread concerning firearms on board on sailnet/crusiers forum and of course we all know how these discussions take a life of their own. This problem of other countries disarming vessels has confined my retirement dreams to U.S. territorial waters where I can legally make a decision about the tools of survival onboard my vessel. I will spend my U.S. dollars where they will do the most good for the time being. I'm glad to say that I expect no one else to ever be responsible for my safety ,regardless.
I'm not 6 foot 3 inches tall and 230 pounds , I'm not a very intimidating figure in the face of violent criminals. I can identify with the survivor in the helplessness and dispair she must have felt. Prayer does not work in these situations just as prayer won't keep you from drowning after you have fallen overboard without a flotation device.
It's only one negative report in a sea of great crusing experiences but for these people it is life changing, for me it a life lesson in decision making.
J. Slocum has inspired many of us to dream of the life of the sea. He of all people left port in the Spray with a "bag full of experience" and a little luck. Most of the rest of us leave port with a "bag full of luck " trying to "fill the bag with experience" before our luck runs out. However, not even J Slocum was born with his bag full of experience! I learned "a box of carpet tacks a shotgun and winning smile" go a long way to being successfull. People I'm dealing with detemine the order and measure of use.
Sleepingsquirrel
I'm not 6 foot 3 inches tall and 230 pounds , I'm not a very intimidating figure in the face of violent criminals. I can identify with the survivor in the helplessness and dispair she must have felt. Prayer does not work in these situations just as prayer won't keep you from drowning after you have fallen overboard without a flotation device.
It's only one negative report in a sea of great crusing experiences but for these people it is life changing, for me it a life lesson in decision making.
J. Slocum has inspired many of us to dream of the life of the sea. He of all people left port in the Spray with a "bag full of experience" and a little luck. Most of the rest of us leave port with a "bag full of luck " trying to "fill the bag with experience" before our luck runs out. However, not even J Slocum was born with his bag full of experience! I learned "a box of carpet tacks a shotgun and winning smile" go a long way to being successfull. People I'm dealing with detemine the order and measure of use.
Sleepingsquirrel
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I've had the "firearms on boats" discussion more than a few times, online and off, and I'm always surprised when someone comes up against the idea. My argument is that EVERY sailor, worldwide, should be allowed ONE firearm for personal defense. A marinized pump shotgun makes the most sense. It then becomes a personal choice to have one or not. Use it or not.
You have to understand that I'm from the island of Barbados. Firearm ownership is severely restricted, and crime, despite what the statistics say, it quite high. Lots of crime in the third world simply goes unreported. I have family that work the charterboat trade and race in the Caribbean. They wouldn't think to sail the Grenadines, a supposedly safe place, without a shotgun.
Now I realize that this is in stark contrast to what most US and Euro cruisers would tell, you, thousands of ocean miles without a problem, blah, blah, blah. Listen to the locals. They know what is really happening.
The last issue is the "banana republics" are mostly not gun friendly and make is difficult for a sailor to have a weapon on board. Having one makes clearing in and out of customs that much more difficult. The flip side of this is these same banana republics don't do a hell of a lot to safeguard your life or possessions either. Its a "lose-lose" really.
This poor wretch was at the wrong place, wrong time. I'm actually very surprised his daughter wasn't raped and murdered as well. Four bullet holes is a very deliberate thing.
RT
You have to understand that I'm from the island of Barbados. Firearm ownership is severely restricted, and crime, despite what the statistics say, it quite high. Lots of crime in the third world simply goes unreported. I have family that work the charterboat trade and race in the Caribbean. They wouldn't think to sail the Grenadines, a supposedly safe place, without a shotgun.
Now I realize that this is in stark contrast to what most US and Euro cruisers would tell, you, thousands of ocean miles without a problem, blah, blah, blah. Listen to the locals. They know what is really happening.
The last issue is the "banana republics" are mostly not gun friendly and make is difficult for a sailor to have a weapon on board. Having one makes clearing in and out of customs that much more difficult. The flip side of this is these same banana republics don't do a hell of a lot to safeguard your life or possessions either. Its a "lose-lose" really.
This poor wretch was at the wrong place, wrong time. I'm actually very surprised his daughter wasn't raped and murdered as well. Four bullet holes is a very deliberate thing.
RT
treilley
Sustaining Partner
We chartered the Grenidines last Spring. The charter company was very clear to make sure we lock the dinghy and motor everywhere we went no matter how safe it looked. Even Mustique. We were also told not to venture up the western coast of St. Vincent. Lots of drug growing by unfriendly locals. We did not plan to go there anyway although I am not sure how bad it really is.
I was surprised to find that it is illeagal to where camoflage clothing in St. Vincent.
Being someone who is interested in going long term crusing I am very concerned about personal protection. Most cruisers say just give them what they want which is fine with me but what happens when it is you they want. It is only a matter of time before the kidnapping craze spreads to this side of the pond. Heck, it already has in Mexico although I think that is mainly inland.
I was surprised to find that it is illeagal to where camoflage clothing in St. Vincent.
Being someone who is interested in going long term crusing I am very concerned about personal protection. Most cruisers say just give them what they want which is fine with me but what happens when it is you they want. It is only a matter of time before the kidnapping craze spreads to this side of the pond. Heck, it already has in Mexico although I think that is mainly inland.
mherrcat
Contributing Partner
Seems like there would be plenty of places on a boat to conceal a firearm when entering another country's waters. (I would be interested in knowing how common it is for cruisers to be stopped unannounced and inspected.)
I lean toward the, "it's easier to beg for forgiveness later than ask for permission in the first place," methodology. You can't beg for forgiveness if you're dead...
I lean toward the, "it's easier to beg for forgiveness later than ask for permission in the first place," methodology. You can't beg for forgiveness if you're dead...
exoduse35
Sustaining Member
Mark, you and I agree totaly... In concept! The only minor problem is that the places that you would need to hide your guns are also the places you hear that you never want to get arrested. Also they are not nearly as forgiving as the U.S. on such matters. There are some places that you would never see the light of day again if caught. My luck... BUSTED FIRST TIME EVERY TIME! Many customs agents in many places Will tear your boat apart upon entry to their part of the world. They have become quite good at looking for drugs, fresh fruit, and I am sure guns! There is no place you can hide one on board they cannot find if the want to, and the punishment IS NOT pleasant. 
Edd
Edd
How about a flare gun and some shotgun shells?
HughHarv
Hugh
Good self-defense
My two cents on self-defense. The problem with carrying guns to be used for personal defense is how to keep it where you have ready access to it all the time. If it has to be reached in a hurry, then it has to be kept at the ready, loaded. Better know how to aim and fire the weapon and clear any jams. Know not to use excessive force and be willing to take responsibility for the consequences of injuring a citizen of a foreign country. From what I have read, you will probably be out numbered and out gunned by your attackers. What happens if you get em and survive the shooting but take a hit, just one round in the wrong spot and you bleed to death. Maybe it would be better to try to prevent becoming singled out by the wolves. Keep a herd mentality, maybe arrange to travel in groups and anchor together, or at least avoid remote anchorages?
My two cents on self-defense. The problem with carrying guns to be used for personal defense is how to keep it where you have ready access to it all the time. If it has to be reached in a hurry, then it has to be kept at the ready, loaded. Better know how to aim and fire the weapon and clear any jams. Know not to use excessive force and be willing to take responsibility for the consequences of injuring a citizen of a foreign country. From what I have read, you will probably be out numbered and out gunned by your attackers. What happens if you get em and survive the shooting but take a hit, just one round in the wrong spot and you bleed to death. Maybe it would be better to try to prevent becoming singled out by the wolves. Keep a herd mentality, maybe arrange to travel in groups and anchor together, or at least avoid remote anchorages?
Your post has many good points. I would strongly recommend that anyone planning on having a firearm for defense be well trained in its use. Also they should be very aware of the consequenses or its misuse as well as the after effects of using deadly force in self defense. If not, then don't get involved in firearms at all!
The whole point of cruising is to "get away", usually from the crowds. That by definition means breaking with the herd mentality and visiting remote anchorages.
Proper risk management is part of life. You have to choose what you are comfortable with. My take is that being very vigilant, paying close attention to your surroundings, etc. I don't think that most people think at this level.
Choosing to have a firearm for defense is simply allowing another option. The scenario of "getting 'em" but "taking a round" and then bleeding out is somehow worse than just getting shot in the first place? An unloaded, inaccessable gun is useless. The only unloaded guns I own are in a safe. If they are not in the safe, they are loaded, and readily available. I have no problem with a loaded pump shotgun in a scabbard mounted right at the companionway. But then again I have "extensive" firearm experience, this would seem normal to me.
I look at the world as a potentially dangerous place. I wouldn't walk through certain areas of any American city at night. And if I was caught in the "wrong place" I would have no problem being armed. It gives me an option. Same goes for a remote anchorage. If I'm going there and think there might be a problem being armed at least give me an option.
Of course, paying attention to your surroundings and getting the heck out of a place that doesn't "feel right" is always the best choice anyway.
RT
CaptDan
Member III
Yes. And the victim's boat is exactly 10 hull numbers earlier than ours.
It seems incidents of crime and piracy have increased in recent years - particularly in that part of the world. Or, perhaps they're still relatively few, given the numbers of sailors out there.
To arm or not to arm; that's the question not easily answered. My first thought is to simply stay away from anyplace that even smells of trouble. Easy to say, because I harbor no fantasies of offshore adventure. However, even if one is clever enough to hide weaponry aboard during inspections (it can be done), then while underway, assemble the goods for immediate action (which can be done too), what's the point? Sleeping with a Glock under your pillow and carrying the weapon at all times on your vessel doesn't exactly describe a relaxing vacation.
Besides, even if one chooses to do that - while becoming proficient in marksmanship and deadly force legalities - chances are quite good it'll be all for naught. Because when you least expect it, a skiff whizzes up, four banditos with full auto pistols appear and you're instantly outgunned. Worse, if they spot your weapon they may fire on your immediately. It's a lose-lose scenario.
So, I have no answers; everybody has to make their own decisions. Mine is to take my chances locally; others should follow their own dreams and equip themselves as they see fit.
RIP.
Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
This is the web side of first interview given by daughter of the victim of Honduras shooting :
http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV_Shows/Connect_with_Mark_Kelley/1305591601/ID=1691789173
http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV_Shows/Connect_with_Mark_Kelley/1305591601/ID=1691789173
Well, there is the other side, too...
Gentlemen,
while I agree that firearms on board on a rare occasion can save you... In a typical case it will be your shotgun against a few AK-47s. A no-win situation, really. There indeed was one documented case when a shotgun scared away pirates, but in that case, bad guys decided not to shoot - who knows why. If they did, that would be the end of story.
So, with a shotgun, or without one, you are - let's face it - a very soft target... It seems that a shotgun on board is more a placebo pill for you then a real deterrent for the attacker. As such, it is quite useful
.
Just my thoughts.
Regards,
Stan
Gentlemen,
while I agree that firearms on board on a rare occasion can save you... In a typical case it will be your shotgun against a few AK-47s. A no-win situation, really. There indeed was one documented case when a shotgun scared away pirates, but in that case, bad guys decided not to shoot - who knows why. If they did, that would be the end of story.
So, with a shotgun, or without one, you are - let's face it - a very soft target... It seems that a shotgun on board is more a placebo pill for you then a real deterrent for the attacker. As such, it is quite useful
.Just my thoughts.
Regards,
Stan
I watched the start f the interview and it seems that a flair gun was used to remove the bandits from around the boat.
They do make a metal sleeve that will fit into a flair gun to accept a 12 guage shell.
I have a loaded 357 at my bedside and anyone breaking into my home will be shot dead. I know how to use the gun, and I will use it to protect my family and myself. I do have a carry permit, and have been to many classes on gun safty.
You can always say "if" and "When" but if I was in that part of the world I would have something to protect myself. There are many options out there and there are many "items" on the boat that could be used.
I am sorry for the family's loss, it seems to me that the father was protecting his daughter, a hero in my book.
They do make a metal sleeve that will fit into a flair gun to accept a 12 guage shell.
I have a loaded 357 at my bedside and anyone breaking into my home will be shot dead. I know how to use the gun, and I will use it to protect my family and myself. I do have a carry permit, and have been to many classes on gun safty.
You can always say "if" and "When" but if I was in that part of the world I would have something to protect myself. There are many options out there and there are many "items" on the boat that could be used.
I am sorry for the family's loss, it seems to me that the father was protecting his daughter, a hero in my book.
I shot competitively for years - grew up in a family that hunted and believed in home defense. I'd rather take my chances armed than not armed and be a sitting duck with a known outcome of dead. There are many documented instances where the proper firearm's presence deterred an assault without a shot ever being fired. Even if in the end they might "win" due to numbers, it seems many assailants would seem to rather flee the barrel of a shotgun than risk being one of the assailants who took the shot(s). As a good friend used to say, "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6"....
Dan Morehouse
Member III
I watched the interview of the daughter, and it was just heartbreaking. Her account makes it seem that the presence of a gun on their boat wouldn't have saved her father, since the shooting surprised them both. But...she DID brandish a weapon, albeit a flare gun, and the criminals DID flee. And as gentle and unassuming as this woman appeared, when tragedy struck and her own life was threatened, she tried to arm herself with the object most resembling a...GUN. It wouldn't strain one's imagination to conclude that she wished it WAS a shotgun.
There is no guarantee that carrying a weapon onboard will save you in the case of assault. But NOT carrying one guarantees you will be defenseless if the unthinkable happens. Preparing our boats well doesn't guarantee we won't sink in a storm, either...but it does improve our odds of survival. And given the fact that good preparation is the cost of admission to the activity of sailing, carrying a weapon seems the kind of reasonable precaution a prudent mariner might reasonably be allowed to take.
I appreciate the reasoned posts I've read here, since this topic has commonly produced a more hysterical tenor in other places I've seen it...a hysteria directed at weapons themselves. And it always makes me think how this debate would have sounded to the merchantmen of the previous centuries, who armed their vessels heavily against the possibility of attacks. Had they meekly stripped their vessels of weapons, it would have improved the safety of no one but the pirates themselves.
Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"
There is no guarantee that carrying a weapon onboard will save you in the case of assault. But NOT carrying one guarantees you will be defenseless if the unthinkable happens. Preparing our boats well doesn't guarantee we won't sink in a storm, either...but it does improve our odds of survival. And given the fact that good preparation is the cost of admission to the activity of sailing, carrying a weapon seems the kind of reasonable precaution a prudent mariner might reasonably be allowed to take.
I appreciate the reasoned posts I've read here, since this topic has commonly produced a more hysterical tenor in other places I've seen it...a hysteria directed at weapons themselves. And it always makes me think how this debate would have sounded to the merchantmen of the previous centuries, who armed their vessels heavily against the possibility of attacks. Had they meekly stripped their vessels of weapons, it would have improved the safety of no one but the pirates themselves.
Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"
exoduse35
Sustaining Member
First of all Dan is right. I don't know of any other place on or off line that this dialog would be both rational and civil. Everyone should Be proud of the respect available on this site! I don't have any friends, but if I did, you gentlemen (and ladies) would be the kind I would want!
I think that when traveling internationally the problem is most like the decision to take pets. Yes it is nice to have them, but it does complicate admittance to many ports. As for their effectiveness I guess it is like locking your car... you do it and hope that our display of preparedness is enough to make the bad guys move on to an easier target!
I think that when traveling internationally the problem is most like the decision to take pets. Yes it is nice to have them, but it does complicate admittance to many ports. As for their effectiveness I guess it is like locking your car... you do it and hope that our display of preparedness is enough to make the bad guys move on to an easier target!