Adventures in FCC License Renewal

[Loren Beach]

I am ending a week of (off and on) attempts to renew my "Ship Radio Station Authorization". The renewal letter from the FCC came out early this month and needs to be done before the old license expires in March.
This is a TEN year license, and is required for transmitting in foreign waters.

Their form letter is rather pointed about wanted us boaters to renew on line. And that's where the fun begins.........

When you go to their site, there is nothing (zip, nada) to guide the user into a system that probably did not even exist ten long years ago when the prior license was obtained with a single piece of paper mailed in to them.

Admittedly, their web site seems built around a clientele of commercial boat and plane owners, many with fleets of craft. Still, given the plethora of private boat owners in the NW and the upper US East Coast that go back n forth to Canadian waters every year I expected better. (sigh)

So, I first find that the site demands that I establish a FRN (FCC Registration Number), and that certainly does make sense. So I do so and then get a page where I can enter my call sign. And.... that's about where the rabbit hole starts abruptly heading downward.
At that point I have my nice private secret number and have properly entered the answers to my own personal Security Code and then..... their system recognizes my call sign and all is.... um.... not so good.

Seems that it then informs me that my call sign belongs to another "FRN" and I am not allowed to consolidate these identities until I use some sort of mumbo jumbo somewhere in their web site that cannot be flushed out.

And of course now I cannot renew the license on line either, until this problem is addressed.

So, we next go the part of the site with the form number (605) and find that it's a monster PDF with many places to guess at what to put into the blanks. And somewhere else, with a lot of searching, one can find the current renewal fee. Appears to be $65.
My memory is poor but almost recall this costing about $15. ten years ago. Poor recall on my part, or inflation, or something.

Before going to Plan C and wandering into my local marine electronics shop to beg for help due to my general incompetence, and having them fill out something to stuff into an envelope to the distant FCC gods of the airwaves, I wrote a polite and somewhat anguished email to the Help Desk at the FCC today.

I hope that one their cyber elves can help me renew this ship license.
I guess that I'm kinda incensed now... "licensed" would be an improvement!


Any of you been thru this process recently?
And did you find your mysterious prior FRN before going any further into their site?


Thanks,
Loren

 

[Christian Williams]

I registered last year during a time when the whole system was down for months.

Believe it or not, I called the help telephone line and a very helpful woman answered on the second ring and walked me through it.

Might be worth a try.

 

[Rick R.]

Loren, as difficult as it may seem count yourself lucky that you aren't seeking a copyright. The Library of Congress' website, now that is a major PIA!

 

[supersailor]

FCC License

Loren,

Good timing. I have been happily talking away in Canada for years. About two weeks ago, I found out that the FCC requires a station license for foreign use of our VHF. This is one of our really stupid requirements as the Canadians don't give a damn and the FCC has no way of checking up on our foreign short distance communications.

Government types should never be allowed to touch computers. There is something about Civil Service and computers that is disastrous. That said, Could you share with us the link so that we can start the process of getting one of these? I'll scream later. I'm sure many of our Vikings need this license. Ignorance has been bliss.

 

[toddster]

Somewhere, I found a third-party web site that had step-by-step instructions on what the correct answer is to fill out on those long forms. Probably couldn't find it again though. I seem to recall the fee being around $100, plus another $50 or so for the RRT permit. But that was a first-time registration.

Oh, there is some kind of on-line database that will list every FCC license-holder and call sign in your zip-code. Don't know if it will give FRN though. I guess that wouldn't make much sense if it's like a PIN. But... it's the gummint, after all.

 

[Loren Beach]

Loren,

Good timing. I have been happily talking away in Canada for years. About two weeks ago, I found out that the FCC requires a station license for foreign use of our VHF. This is one of our really stupid requirements as the Canadians don't give a damn and the FCC has no way of checking up on our foreign short distance communications.

Government types should never be allowed to touch computers. There is something about Civil Service and computers that is disastrous. That said, Could you share with us the link so that we can start the process of getting one of these? I'll scream later. I'm sure many of our Vikings need this license. Ignorance has been bliss.

To apply for your id number, start here:
https://apps.fcc.gov/coresWeb/publicHome.do

And more than you might want to know, here:
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing&id=ship_stations

Loren

 

[fool]

new ship station and restricted radio telephone operator license...

Loren you have my sympathies.

I just went through all this to get an SSL and RTO permit just so I'd have an international MMSI number attached to the vessel for DSC calling in case of emergency (and for monitoring ham networks in foreign ports). The simple solution would have been to go through BoatUS to get a free MMSI to program into the radio and let it go at that. But... at some point or another my dreams for this vessel are to leave US domestic waters (Baja Haha perhaps) where the simple solution isn't recognized in international waters.

Long story short. $200 and something or so dollars later both have arrived in the mail; tracking the progress through the FCC using the FRN number was simple and reassuring. The initial application did require a WTF e-mail message to the authorities to get the course set on a proper tack. The gov't was prompt and clear with their cut and paste reply to my message of confusion and here's praying you'll find your solution as simply and easily executable. I can't help thinking the bureaucrat doing the cut and paste was also replying "duh" but am grateful for the redirection. I trust you'll find a similar reply to your inquiry.

I won't list the steps or links here as you are chasing a 10 year renewal. I'm just happy I won't have to pursue this for another 10 years. Doh! Too many TLA's (three letter acronyms) and a bog's worth of federal regulation are enough to slow the digestive track incredibly. Pity the cut and paste bureaucrat, and sympathy for those of us suffering through a lack of CSV (clear simple vision) on the part of our elected officials. Anybody beside me remember when CB's were also regulated by the FCC? Judging from that example perhaps there is a method to their madness...

http://www.latitude38.com/features/SSB.html#.VMXUvXDF9xs

Cheers to your quest, may it prove profitable with appropriate results.

T.

September Sun
Ericson 35 MkIII
Channel Islands Harbor

 

[Grizz]

4 States, Freshwater and no FCC

Although this peek into FCC requirements for vessels plying international waters doesn't offset the short (5-month+) Lake Michigan sailing season, it does make the ease of passage between the 4 states (Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan) easy by comparison.

Any bets placed on whether Loren is informed who had the call sign he requested? I'm taking the 'not a chance!'...

 

[Second Star]

Radio Licencing

Interestingly, I had to obtain a Canadian Radio Stn Licence because it is a US requirement for non-US vessels in US waters! The USCG includes it in any inspection. Looks like you southerners are caught in a do-loop!

 

[mkollerjr]

Great - I just installed a new-fangled DSC capable VHF this weekend. Now, If I want a MMSI number AND also be able to go to Canada, I'm going to have to go through the FCC process. Let the process begin...which reminds me, it's almost time to do taxes.

Mark

 

[Loren Beach]

Although this peek into FCC requirements for vessels plying international waters doesn't offset the short (5-month+) Lake Michigan sailing season, it does make the ease of passage between the 4 states (Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan) easy by comparison.
Any bets placed on whether Loren is informed who had the call sign he requested? I'm taking the 'not a chance!'...

Note that the call sign actually is ours (our boat, anyway). What caught me off guard was their assigning an FRN to me and me having no record of one existing.
The trick is to search their db first with your existing (ancient...?) call sign and see if you are in their system already.

Loren

 

[Tom Metzger]

Several years ago, before Rochester, NY got a video phone check-in at the harbor my sons & I wanted to sail across LK Ontario to Cobourg, Ont on son's P-26. Wanting to be legal we were each going to get an immigration form so we wouldn't have to go to either the east or west end of the lake to check in. They are over 200 miles apart with Rochester somewhere in the middle. Cobourg is only about 60 miles from Rochester.

My son in Rochester had no problem getting the form, in fact, the immigration people went to Rochester from Buffalo to facilitate the many sailors who wanted the form. My son in Philly was told he couldn't get the form because he wasn't on the Canadian border. I drove to the major border crossing between Montreal and New York City (I-87) where I was told I couldn't get the form because I didn't have my boat with me. The fact that I was going to cross on someone else's boat made no difference. This office is under the control of the same Buffalo office that my son used, but the man wouldn't make a phone call and I left before I was arrested. :headb:

The end result was that while we could have scrubbed the trip, we did the obvious. When we were across the border on the way home we took down the courtesy flag and switched from Molson's to Genesee beer.

Trying to be good citizens doesn't always work.

 

[footrope]

New Ship's License

I just paid $214 for a new Ship's License. I wanted an internationally registered MMSI for AIS and DSC. I also have a radar. I don't recall if I checked the HF/SSB box on the application. I have ham radio transmitting gear onboard, but no commercial marine SSB. I didn't bother with the license until I needed the MMSI, even though I made trips into Canada several times.

I do have a Restricted Radiotelephone from the 70s when I started flying lessons and it was in the ULS database a few years ago. I was under the impression that it covered me adequately. I was never questioned about it, even on that morning the Canadian Government boat paid me a visit when they were looking for the check-in number that I had failed to post in the window.

 

[mkollerjr]

I just paid $214 for a new Ship's License. I wanted an internationally registered MMSI for AIS and DSC. I also have a radar. I don't recall if I checked the HF/SSB box on the application. I have ham radio transmitting gear onboard, but no commercial marine SSB. I didn't bother with the license until I needed the MMSI, even though I made trips into Canada several times.

I do have a Restricted Radiotelephone from the 70s when I started flying lessons and it was in the ULS database a few years ago. I was under the impression that it covered me adequately. I was never questioned about it, even on that morning the Canadian Government boat paid me a visit when they were looking for the check-in number that I had failed to post in the window.

Great, so I'll almost be paying the price of the new DSC VHF again just to get an MMSI number to be able to use it. Oh well.

 

[mkollerjr]

So, for Form 605, Shedule B, Item 5, did you select "sailing ship" or "sloop"?

mark

 

[footrope]

So, for Form 605, Shedule B, Item 5, did you select "sailing ship" or "sloop"?

mark

Sloop. It is an arcane list, but I have little sense of maritime history. Maybe I should find out if I kept any copies of the application.

When he programmed the AIS transceiver, the technician selected Pleasure Craft. I reprogrammed it to Sailing Vessel. There isn't much guidance for labeling non-commercial boats. Maybe someone knows if 'vessel' implies commercial use or is reserved for a certain size of boat?

 

[toddster]

Since the data also includes the LOA and beam of your boat, I doubt there would be much confusion. In an AIS message, the type of vessel is generally one word appearing right after the vessel name. Sometimes it determines what color symbol is used on the plotter. I've seen sailboat targets labeled "sailing," "pleasure," and "unknown," but never "sloop."

Although the US regulations are weird about users editing their DSC data, there is often software available to edit all the AIS stuff, particularly if it's a non-US brand. And you can log into your FCC account and edit almost any information about your boat. I think if you change the name of the boat, they issue a new license (not sure if there's a fee, but there probably is) but you can edit most of the other stuff. e.g. SAR relevant data, such as whether or not you have a liferaft.

 

[markvone]

Just did this exercise

Here's the link to step by step instructions:

http://www.offshorestore.com/services/selfhelp/communications/fcclicense.htm

There is a link to a pdf version you can print/save in the upper right corner.

I followed the instructions and found it pretty direct for a new application.

Paperwork came pretty quick if I recall correctly.

$60 for lifetime Operator License and $160 for 10 yr Ship's Radio Station License for VHF and SSB with MMSI #.

For Form 605, B, section 5 I used Pleasure (PL) and Sloop (SLO) but I don't think there is a wrong answer.

I have copies of my 605 forms if there are any more questions.

Mark

 

[footrope]

Since the data also includes the LOA and beam of your boat, I doubt there would be much confusion. In an AIS message, the type of vessel is generally one word appearing right after the vessel name. Sometimes it determines what color symbol is used on the plotter. I've seen sailboat targets labeled "sailing," "pleasure," and "unknown," but never "sloop."

...snipped...

You're right, and "sloop" is not a selection available when programming the AIS transponder using Raymarine's software anyway. The terms for boat types in the FCC application, which include "sloop," are not the same list of types in the Raymarine AIS programming software.

The US FCC regulations for programming AIS transponders require a navigation gear dealer or marine electronics technician to program the MMSI into the transponder. Once programmed the MMSI field is locked. The other data can be changed. I went in and added additional data to be sent on each transmission, and then changed the vessel type to Sailing Vessel.

cd

 

[bgary]

A little bit of thread-resurrection, in case it's useful to someone

I spent the day on Tuesday navigating the morass of the FCC on-line application system. Here’s what I learned….

1) It is not at *all* clear from the FCC licensing page which license(s) one should get. The best information I found was at offshoreblue.com

http://www.offshoreblue.com/communications/radio-operator.php
http://www.offshoreblue.com/communications/radio-station.php

This is about the best info on the FCC site

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing&id=ship_stations

In broad terms, a pleasure boat (less than 300 tons, no commercial use, no passengers for hire) is not required to have a radio onboard
… unless it will be visiting foreign ports and/or communicating with foreign stations, in which case it is required to have an FCC-licensed “station”.

AND, if you have a station license you are required to have an “operator’s permit” in order to operate that licensed station. That’s two separate licenses. The “station” license is associated with the boat and is good for 10 years, the "operator" license is associated with a person and is good for life​

2)The FCC requires that you have an “FRN” (Federal Registration Number) in their “CORES” (Common Registration System) before you can do anything else. Fairly painless, and you get your FRN instantly

https://apps.fcc.gov/coresWeb/publicHome.do​

3) Once you have your FRN, you can start applying for your licenses. The website is a hodge-podge of mixed messages – telling you which forms to use, and then encouraging you to use the ULS (“Universal License System”) paperless/online process.

*IF* you want to file on paper, the forms you’ll need are
-- 159, which is the authorization to process payments
-- 605 (main), which is the main form for all ship- and aviation licenses
-- 605 (supplemental), which gathers additional information (emergency contacts, etc)
-- Schedule B, which is the application for the Ship Station license
-- Schedule E, which is the application for the Restricted Radiotelephone Operator license
-- Schedule F, which is the application for a “temporary permit” – you don’t send this one in, you fill it out and sign it, and it serves as your “permit” (with temporary call-sign) for 90 days.

Based on advice from a friend, I printed out the paper copies of all the forms (and associated instructions) and filled them all out, just to make sure I knew which choices were appropriate and where I needed more information. It was a fairly useful exercise, if a bit mind-numbing.​

4) BUT, the online (ULS) system is *much* less painful than the paper forms. Basically it walks you through the information-gathering and doesn’t make you fill in things that are not relevant to the kind(s) of license(s) you are applying for. With your FRN (and the information you need from the forms) in hand, go here

http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=home

… log into ULS, pick “online filing”, and select “apply for a new license” from the left nav-bar​

5) One of the weirdnesses I encountered in the license process was the request for my boat’s “gross tonnage” – which in government terms has absolutely nothing to do with the boat’s weight or displacement. It’s a crude calculation of total volume (supposedly originating from a requirement to know how much cargo a vessel can carry), and is relatively simple math. There’s an online calculator at the USCG site I can point you to if you need it.

6) I ended up having to go thru the online application process twice. Once for my station license application (service code SA “Ship, recreational or voluntarily equipped”, application purpose NE for “new”) and then a second time to apply for my “Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit” (service code "RR", application purpose "NE")

In each pass, when I was done with the application I was offered the option to make payment online, with a link to info about sending in a check if I preferred. The online payment was easy enough, and avoids having to fill out form 159, a truly horrendous form authorizing them to receive your payment. Total cost ended up being $280 (more than the cost of a good radio!). That breaks down as $65 for the station application, $65 for the operator application, and $150 “regulatory fee”.​

7) I received both licenses (with associated call-sign and MMSI number) last night, via email. Less-than-48-hour turnaround *seriously* surprised me, especially this time of year.


One key learning I’d add to this: If you have a DSC-capable radio and don’t already have the MMSI number required to enable that functionality, you have two choices – you can get your MMSI through the FCC as part of the “station” license, or you can get the MMSI assigned by Boat-US. The Boat-US process is easier (and undoubtedly cheaper), *BUT* - the MMSI number you get through Boat-US is *not* valid for international use, and cannot be converted to an FCC-recognized MMSI.

If you want an MMSO that is valid internationally, you’ll have to get it from the FCC. The likelihood of getting “caught” using a domestic-only MMSI while on a trip to the Gulf Islands (or whatever) is probably low, but… you should know there is a difference.

I have all my notes from going through this – if anyone gets bogged down in the process, let me know…happy to share how I ended up making the choices I made.

Bruce