APS annual line and rigging sale

[bgary]

Couldn't find the thread where this was mentioned last year, sorry...

APS has an annual sale on line and rigging. This year, it starts Monday (7 January).... 20% off line and rigging (including complete halyards, etc)

If you're looking at replacing or upgrading any running-rigging bits... this is often a pretty good deal. And (at least last year), West Marine will do a price-match if you want to buy the same line, locally.

http://www.apsltd.com/

Bruce (no connection, other than long-time customer)

 

[mjsouleman]

bgary,

Thanks for the heads up. Now for the assistance: I am replacing the sheaves on my 1983 30+ Ericson boom. hadn't thought thru replacing lines but you brought it up.

Colors: Thinking red (starboard), green (Port) and blue (to raise the boom).

Size and material: Any suggestions?

MJS

 

[bgary]

Size and material: Any suggestions?

Hmmm... short answer: it depends.

The (much) longer answer: My general preferences are around the idea that I want to be able to distinguish one line from another, so I can grab the right one by sight or feel.

So...
-- my halyards are all color-coded VPC, white with a color "fleck" (port is white/red, starboard is white/green, jib is white/blue, main is white/black)
-- my "working" lines are solid color - mainsheet is solid-blue Samson XLS, jibsheets are solid-black "Globe 5000"
...etc

So, yeah, I like the idea of having the reeflines fit that model. For my reeflines I chose Samson MLX... green for starboard/1st reef, red for port/2nd reef.

I chose MLX because it is low-stretch, it handles chafe and UV exposure pretty well, and it is (visually and by feel) "different" than the other lines around it - I can tell whether I'm grabbing a halyard or a reefline just by the way it feels. Note that MLX is NOT the most comfortable line to handle - it's fairly stiff and has a hard feel to it, but I figured it's not a line I "handle" that much, mostly it will be winched on.

I've gone almost entirely to 8mm (5/16") lines on Makana. It's a decent size, it fits in my stoppers and self-tailer jaws, and it isn't that hard on the hands. I wouldn't go any smaller for any line that I have to handle under load (about the only lines bigger than 5/16" on Makana are the jibsheets, which are 10mm (3/8")

Suggestions? I like "VPC" a lot. Easy on the hands, very strong, low stretch, great for halyards in particular. I also like "Globe 5000 Mk-II" (yeah, there's a name that rolls off the tongue!) Good chafe-resistant cover, good UV resistance, both of which (IMO) make it good for things like jibsheets that are used a lot and constantly exposed. I think the Samson XLS line is "pretty good" - not as low stretch, not as chafe-resistant, but not as expensive, either. I'm not personally a fan of Sta-Set. Not sure why, it seems to be very popular, at least at the marine hardware store, I've just never liked it.

I guess what that rolls up to is... in picking a line, consider
-- how strong it has to be, and whether or not low-stretch is important
-- how exposed it will be, and whether chafe-resistance and/or UV-resistance matter
-- how much you want to spend for those ^^^ two things
-- and then the subjective question of how its size and construction feel in your hands.

In general, bigger lines will feel better and cost more. So it makes sense (if possible) to "handle" a bunch of lines so you have an idea of whether 5/16" is too small to be comfortable, or whether the jump up to 3/8" is worth the (roughly) 20-30% higher price.

$.02
Bruce

 

[Kenneth K]

Thanks for the heads-up, Bruce. Just put an order in for an all-rope VPC jib halyard and several new lines for the in-boom rigging.

Several of the sheaves on the boom ends and internal blocks weren't turning freely so I'll likely buy some new sheaves from ZephyrWerks before I put it all back together. I had a sense the main outhaul line never felt right. Turns out that the main outhaul and reefing clews are all set up as 4:1 rigs and the topping lift at 2:1. There is a lot going on inside that boom.

I'm also putting longer lines on the topping lift & main outhaul and moving their cleats aft, so I can reach them both form the helm.

Nice to save 20%.

 

[Geoff W.]

Just ordered a jib halyard to replace my wire one, a jibsheet to replace my frayed one, and two 50' dock lines to get through the "big locks" with.

 

[mjsouleman]

Hi Ken,

I am doing the same boom upgrade on Discovery (1983 30+ for cruising purposes). All my boom sheaves were spinning fine and in good condition except for the two 1" by 1/2 reefing line sheaves at the mast end of the mast. rig-rite wanted $57 ea, so I was very happy to read your blog about ZephyrWerks who quoted $38 ea.

Any advice on reefing lines, outhaul and topping lift material and sizes?

MJS

Thanks for the heads-up, Bruce. Just put an order in for an all-rope VPC jib halyard and several new lines for the in-boom rigging.

Several of the sheaves on the boom ends and internal blocks weren't turning freely so I'll likely buy some new sheaves from ZephyrWerks before I put it all back together. I had a sense the main outhaul line never felt right. Turns out that the main outhaul and reefing clews are all set up as 4:1 rigs and the topping lift at 2:1. There is a lot going on inside that boom.

I'm also putting longer lines on the topping lift & main outhaul and moving their cleats aft, so I can reach them both form the helm.

Nice to save 20%.

 

[mjsouleman]

Ericson 30+ Boom maintenance project quotes for new lines

Here is a quote from APS 20% off sale for replacement lines (boom maintenance project)

Manufacturer Choices:
Sta-Set
XLS
ULS Yacht Braid

Notes: I was told
1. XLS line is being discontinued
2. Sta-Set and ULS Yacht Braid were basically the same with Sta-Set having a longer life than ULS Yacht Braid

Question: outhaul and topping lift sizes suggested were 1/4 in. Is this the correct size?

Item Number	Description	Qty Ord.	Unit Price	Disc	Extended Price
NESS516 GREEN	New England Ropes Sta-Set: 8mm (5/16") 5/16 in	39.00	$ 0.7600	20	$ 23.71
NESS516 RED	New England Ropes Sta-Set: 8mm (5/16") 5/16 in	29.00	$ 0.7600	20	$ 17.63
NESS14 WHITE/BLUE	New England Ropes Sta-Set: 6mm (1/4") 1/4 in	23.00	$ 0.5600	20	$ 10.30
NESS14 BLACK	New England Ropes Sta-Set: 6mm (1/4") 1/4 in	14.00	$ 0.5600	20	$ 6.27

MJS

 

[bgary]

Question: outhaul and topping lift sizes suggested were 1/4 in. Is this the correct size?

It depends.

For the boom lift, which rarely needs to be adjusted under load... perhaps.

For the outhaul, which DOES need to be adjustable under load, 1/4" is going to be hard on the hands.

(BTW, I'm sure you've thought of this, but I always order a few feet "extra" on each cut piece, just to make sure there's enough for knots and such. If splicing, add a few feet more... It's always easier to make a line shorter than it is to make it longer)

$.02
Bruce

 

[bgary]

Turns out that the main outhaul and reefing clews are all set up as 4:1 rigs and the topping lift at 2:1

4:1? For the reeflines? That doesn't seem right. Assuming the 1st reef line comes out of the boom, up ~4 feet through the reefpoint and dead-ends back on the boom, that's 8 feet of line...which means it would require 8 feet of "working length" (distance between blocks) inside the boom. And probably double that for the 2nd reef.

0_0

On Makana,
-- the topping lift is 2:1 (comes out on underside of boom near the gooseneck);
-- the outhaul is 3:1 (comes out on side of boom near the gooseneck), and
-- the reeflines are "straight through" from the sheave at the aft end of the boom to the sheave at the gooseneck, and then down to the deck.

BTW, just got an email yesterday that West Marine is now having 30% off all bulk line, so... if stocking up, might want to see if West's price is better than APSs for a moment...

Bruce

 

[mjsouleman]

You Guys are funny "I'm sure you've thought of this" ... Of course I haven't. I only measured the original lengths.

MJS

It depends.

For the boom lift, which rarely needs to be adjusted under load... perhaps.

For the outhaul, which DOES need to be adjustable under load, 1/4" is going to be hard on the hands.

(BTW, I'm sure you've thought of this, but I always order a few feet "extra" on each cut piece, just to make sure there's enough for knots and such. If splicing, add a few feet more... It's always easier to make a line shorter than it is to make it longer)

$.02
Bruce

 

[Kenneth K]

Question: outhaul and topping lift sizes suggested were 1/4 in. Is this the correct size?

MJS,

The in-boom lines on my 32-3 were as follows:

Main outhaul - 5/16 line to wire-rope
Topping lift - 5/16 line to wire rope
Reefing - 3/8 line

I stuck with the original line sizes, using 5/16" Sta-Set for the topping lift, and 5/16" VPC for the main outhaul (thinking low-stretch would be better here).

The reefing lines might be another good candidate for VPC vs Sta-Set, but I don't know the final line lengths yet since I'm re-arranging my cabin-top hardware setup. I went with 3/8" Sta-set for the one 24 ft section I did replace, thinking I can switch to VPC next year after I get it all dialed in.

Ken

 

[Kenneth K]

On Makana,
-- the topping lift is 2:1 (comes out on underside of boom near the gooseneck);
-- the outhaul is 3:1 (comes out on side of boom near the gooseneck), and
-- the reeflines are "straight through" from the sheave at the aft end of the boom to the sheave at the gooseneck, and then down to the deck.

Bruce,

Interesting! You made me go back and check my math. And, I probably did screw it up slightly--too many blocks and my head starts spinning around backwards.

I can definitely tell you though, that on Mariah, the reefing lines do NOT run straight through, but are blocked at 3 or 4 to 1. I don't know which was the original configuration and which was the result of PO mods. When I de-rigged the reefing lines in the boom, I posted these pictures to the "E32-3 Reefing Mysteries" post, trying to keep it a complete post of boom reefing info.

Here is what is inside Mariah:



Each reef line (reef #1 = green, #2 = red) is made up of two separate lines--a forward line that exits below the gooseneck and and aft line that exits as the reef clew line. The opposite end of each line is dead-ended inside the boom. The two lines "communicate" with each other via an internal "shuttle-block." In my last post to "E32-3 Reefing Mysteries," I labeled this as a 4:1 reefing system (thinking that a 2:1 acting on another 2:1 equals 4:1). In taking a closer look, I would say now that the "internal" setup is 3:1. However, the (common) practice of looping the clew line through the clew and back down a bowline on the mast (rather than 1 strand tied to the clew) adds one more degree of leverage, so I'd say it's 3:1 "in-boom", and ultimately 4:1 at the clew.

I think this is correct now....


As for the topping lift and main outhaul. Here are the diagrams I made after disassembling mine:



Topping lift is 2:1. On the outhaul, I cant figure out if that's 3:1 or 4:1. This is about the point where my head starts to hurt.....

 

[mjsouleman]

Thanks for the information. I will make another trip to the marina when the sun comes out and pull the ends off the boom and have a lookie-lookie then draw pictures and make re-adjustments for lengths.

This may come in handy for other Ericson 30+ owners.

MJS

Bruce,

Interesting! You made me go back and check my math. And, I probably did screw it up slightly--too many blocks and my head starts spinning around backwards.

I can definitely tell you though, that on Mariah, the reefing lines do NOT run straight through, but are blocked at 3 or 4 to 1. I don't know which was the original configuration and which was the result of PO mods. When I de-rigged the reefing lines in the boom, I posted these pictures to the "E32-3 Reefing Mysteries" post, trying to keep it a complete post of boom reefing info.

Here is what is inside Mariah:

View attachment 25923 View attachment 25924

Each reef line (reef #1 = green, #2 = red) is made up of two separate lines--a forward line that exits below the gooseneck and and aft line that exits as the reef clew line. The opposite end of each line is dead-ended inside the boom. The two lines "communicate" with each other via an internal "shuttle-block." In my last post to "E32-3 Reefing Mysteries," I labeled this as a 4:1 reefing system (thinking that a 2:1 acting on another 2:1 equals 4:1). In taking a closer look, I would say now that the "internal" setup is 3:1. However, the (common) practice of looping the clew line through the clew and back down a bowline on the mast (rather than 1 strand tied to the clew) adds on more degree of leverage, so I'd say it's 3:1 "in-boom", and ultimately 4:1 at the clew.

View attachment 25925 I think this is correct now....


As for the topping lift and main outhaul. Here are the diagrams I made after disassembling mine:

View attachment 25922

Topping lift is 2:1. On the outhaul, I cant figure out if that's 3:1 or 4:1. This is about the point where my head starts to hurt.....

 

[bgary]

I think this is correct now....

OK, so... that's an elegant system that accomplishes... kinda nothing.

What you have at the forward end of the boom is a 2:1 system - every 2 feet of line you pull at the gooseneck will move the shuttle block 1 foot (or, put another way, every pound of force you exert at the front of the boom will exert 2 pounds on the shuttle block) That's... the good news.

The bad news is, the other side of that shuttle block is a 1:2 system. Every foot the shuttle block moves will move 2 feet of line at the aft end of the boom (or, put another way, every 2 pounds exerted on the shuttle block will result in 1 pound of force on the reef line).

So... what that adds up to is that pulling 2 feet of line at the front of the boom will move.... 2 feet of line at the back of the boom. plus the friction of the blocks and extra line inside the boom. In other words... exactly the same as if you got rid of the blocks and just ran the line straight through.

You can test this - put a tape-mark on the line 2 feet from the end of the boom. Pull the line where it exits the gooseneck, and see how much line you had to pull to get your tape-mark to disappear. (you're right, the line going up through the grommet and dead-ending on the boom does add a 2:1 effect... but that's the ONLY mechanical advantage your reef system currently has. Same as mine.)

Topping lift is 2:1. On the outhaul, I cant figure out if that's 3:1 or 4:1.

Yup, your topping lift and outhaul are same as mine (IIRC my outhaul is 3:1, but the basic design is the same).

"in general", you can figure out the mechanical advantage of a pulley system by counting the line segments that go to or from the block that moves. In the case of the topping lift, that block has a line going in and a line going out... it's 2:1 On the outhaul, the block that moves has *four* lines moving through it (two going in, two going out) so it's a 4:1

BTW, as long as you're thinking about things.... I moved my outhaul so it came out the side of the boom, and moved the topping lift so it comes out the bottom. My thinking was that I very rarely do anything with the topping lift, but I adjust the outhaul more often, and I wanted to be able to stand at the mast and pull straight on it rather than ducking under the boom and pulling down. YMMV.

Bruce

 

[Christian Williams]

It seems to me that reef lines inside the boom can't use tinternal boom tackles if they are to reach 2nd or 3rd reefs high on the leech. And even with a single line there is already a great deal of friction to be overcome.

It might be that internal purchase on a single reef was considered necessary if no winch was used--that is, the old-school jammers on the gooseneck were employed, and reef lines could only be hand tight.

Anyhow, the less junk inside the boom the better, tangles in there are common and hard to clear.

 

[Kenneth K]

OK, so... that's an elegant system that accomplishes... kinda nothing.

Wow! Thanks for clearing that up. Hours of head scratching have been involved in my getting to this point. I did once have the notion that the back-half of the apparatus just de-leveraged what was created in the front-half but I soon dismissed the thought. Why would someone go through all the trouble and expense to accomplish nothing? And besides, more pulleys must mean more (not less) leverage, right?

Those stainless Garhauer shuttle blocks are real clunkers--I could regularly hear them banging around inside the boom. And, I probably had well over 100ft of line and wire running inside the boom--just waiting to foul at the wrong moment, of course.

In terms of the "why," though, I did find this diagram on single line reefing:



Almost the exact setup I started with. Though the shuttle block brings the leverage back to 1:1, it probably acts to equalize the load on the forward (downhaul) and aft (outhaul) lines. So, apparently, one of my POs was a single-line reefing guy. I don't understand how though, because with a Dutchman, you always have flaked sail bundles on BOTH sides of the boom when lowering or reefing. In practice, it looks more like this:



So, SLR is NOT something I'm going to try to resurrect. I may cut one of the shuttle blocks in half and run the first reef line as 2:1 inside the boom. As you pointed out, the second reef line is too long for an internal pulley setup and needs to run straight through.

Thanks for clarifying.....especially before I go out to buy new line and put this thing back together. The original reason for all the pictures and drawings was so I could put things back together exactly as they were. Now I don't have to.

How much should I make the check out for?

 

[Geoff W.]

How much should I make the check out for?

I think market rate on these forums runs about $0.02.

 

[bgary]

How much should I make the check out for?

Any amount you want ($.02 sounds about right!).... but you have to deliver it in person at the Rendezvous this year.

 

[Kenneth K]

Any amount you want ($.02 sounds about right!).... but you have to deliver it in person at the Rendezvous this year.

Now you're talkin........

 

[sgwright67]

I enjoyed this little thread, even if it's stretching my brain a bit at this stage (which is good, as I've haven't done much of that since retiring...)

I look forward to solving some of these puzzles on the E29 we're about to purchase if all goes well. One question I have about rigging is in regards to wire size. I suspect the standing rigging and lifelines are original on this '76 E29, and the manual states 7/32" 1/19 was likely used. However, a lot of places seem to skip this size and list only 3/16" and 1/4". I found this listing for 1/4" 316 wire for $1.02 CAD / ft, which seems reasonable. I'd be replacing any fittings as needed, of course. Any reason not to go with 1/4" if the cost is similar? Can anyone recommend good places to shop for this stuff in Canada?

https://wescovan.com/wire-rope/1x19-stainless-cable/14-inch-1x19-stainless-316-strand

Thanks