Best Price on Balmar Alternators

[Shadowfax]

I'm shopping a Balmar Alternator and was wondering if anyone had a line on the best price for a 621-70. Called Defender and they want $449.96, which is like retail and sort of surprised me. Port Supply wants $385.00, but I can't seem to find anyone else selling them, especially online, which also surprises me.

Anyone have a double secert, best price, alternator place?

Thanks

Paul
s/v Shadowfax

 

[Chris Miller]

Try PKYS in Annapolis

Hi Paul,
I'd try Peter Kennedy in Annapolis. http://www.pkys.com/ He has given me some pretty good quotes in the past. Also, pyacht has them...
I'd say the $385 is a pretty darned good quote on that...
Chris

 

[Guy Stevens]

Balmars are only powder coated ac delco alternators

You are looking at a 70 amp, you could just as easily go with a 90 or a 100 amp.

Balmars are for the most part, nothing more than powder coated AC Delcos. Don't bother paying them extra for the powder coated frame. (It holds the heat in instead of letting it out anyway.)

Go to an Alternator shop in your area, or check out the guys at dbelectrical. You can get a brand new equivelent (in chrome even it you want it!) for around $100.00. If you were in Seattle, or here in the bay area I could send you to some great local guys.

If you are cruising and want the best there is then you are going to have to go with a Leese Neville alternator, they have them at dbelectrical also, they are a bit more pricey, but less than the Balmar. They have the advantage of roller bearings on both ends. A seperate, sealed brush area (No belt dust to kill the brushes), and are a ton easier to repair in the field. I think last time I ordered one in at about 100 amps from Mike it was a tad over $200.00, check with them.

Either going with the standard ac delco 100 amp or going with a leese neville, you will get a fine alternator for less than the Balmar.


http://www.dbelectrical.com/

In chrome for the AC Delco new I think you are talking $90.00 (Chrome unlike powder coating will protect the case from the occasional spash, and actually helps with heat dissapation! ) Besides people will ohhhh and ahhhh about it when they see it.

DB can get you pretty much any of the Leese Neville line for a lot less than the Balmar. They will also put your choice of pullys on it, single, double, or strange belt sizes. They are quick efficient and a great bunch of guys. Besides they have these wonderful southern accents that make it fun to listen to them.

Balmar has excellent marketing, but you don't have to pay for it.


Guy

 

[clohman]

Consider looking into the Powerline series 23 before making your final decision. Less marketing sometimes equals lower consumer price. There's an informative article in the Spring 2006 issue of Boatworks Magazine about overhauling your battery (& charging) system. See at http://www.sailmag.com/boatworks once this latest issue is posted.

Good luck, Chip

 

[Tom Metzger]

Alternators

Paul - I agree with Guy in as much as I would recommend a higher rated alternator than 70 amps. The reason is that with a single V belt you can generate about 75 or 80 amps without worrying about belt slippage. With your large house bank a 70 amp alternator will heat up and drop down well below 70 amps very quickly. A larger alternator has more copper in it and will run cooler. Also good for it's life and your skin if you happen to touch it.

My understanding of automotive alternators is that they are rated for about 75% of nameplate current on a continuous basis. That would mean that a 90 amp Delco would not even be equivalent to a 70 amp Balmar.

I can't verify what I am telling you, but I doubt if I could find anyone who I would believe without going to an alternator engineer. I have talked to some "experts" in rewind shops and they know nothing other than automotive applications, and nothing about loading and heat. Forget about charging four deep discharged Surrette batteries.

YMMV

I would also recommend a high rated Gates 1/2" belt. I use their green FHP belts, also available from NAPA.

 

[clohman]

From my email to DIY...
-----------------------------------------------

HI Chip,

This a typical cruising yacht scenario and yes light
load running of any diesel causes carbonization and
also glazing of cylinders, diesels do best when
running at load and when all parts are up to
temperature. There are alternatives to using the
Honda unit. Really you can increase the alternator to
about 80 amps (similar size) on your engine easily and
economically however the key is using a smart
alternator regulator (ample power)to maximize battery
charging efficiency and minimizing the run time. Also
you can opt for AGM batteries which have a high charge
current acceptance rate so you can also speed up the
charging by a factor of 4-5 times and also load engine
up more and decrease engine run times. The extra load
of a 100 amp or an 80 amp alternator will not cause
any undue extra stress on the engine bearings. If you
are usinga 55 amp standard with no smart regulator
you really are running very light. In the end you can
put up with this lighter engine running times with
regulators and AGM batteries and simply reduce it
considerably with far greater efficiency and economoy.
Of course 690 hours is very little engine use and
Universals run very smooth indeed, and if the oil and
water are always clean I suspect she will run to 5690
and more.

Best wishes from John Payne and DIY Boat technical
team,

---------------------------------------------------

- My wife and I sail our 32' sloop with a Universal M25, 23 HP Diesel with
55 AMP Alternator.

- House battery bank = 2 205 AMP/HR Flooded Batteries

- Our AMP usage lasts a little over 2 days before a battery charge is
required (12 volt refer, VHF radio, reading lights, anchor light, stereo,
etc.)

- We anchor for 2-3 days at a time, which requires a re-charge at anchor.

- I've read that running the motor at anchor with no load (to charge the
batteries) will cause carbon build-up.

- Despite all the advances in alternators and regulators, adding a 100 AMP
alternator (25% of my house bank) would take an additional 2 HP from my
engine - during bulk charging I presume. It would also place additional
stress on the bearings of my 20-year-old engine with 690 hours of use.

With all these negatives, I'm inclined to use my portable Honda 1000 Watt
generator a couple hours a day to charge the batteries and save the
engine.

Am I way off track? This seems to buck the current trends in advertising.

Thanks for your insight,

Chip

 

[Shadowfax]

I’ve been wrestling with this alternator question for some time. Awhile back I was told by the local marine electronics guy that I would be better off not upgrading the alternator, but installing a smart regulator, as this was really the problem, i.e. the alternator was not being allowed to charge the batteries because the “stupid” regulator would not allow it. OK, I bought the theory and the smart regulator.

In talking to the electrical guy at the yard where I winter about installing the regulator, we got into a discussion on the merits of this theory. He said that basically the theory was true, however predicted that I would be burning up alternators, as the standard alternators are not built to put out high amps for sustained periods of time. The diodes are not as robust and the extra heat is more then the design allowed. According to him, the high performance alternators [read Balmar] have diodes that are designed for this abuse and cooling fans that help with the heat.

OK, this was easy to believe and was where I was with this whole thing before I talked to the smart regulator guy, so I’m back to looking at alternators. Now I’ve always thought highly of Balmar because I’ve never seen a dead one, but I’m sure there are as good, if not better ones, on the market, I just don’t know about them, or where to get one. I will check out the site Chip noted to see what that brings.

As to the Balmar 70 amp; I called Balamr to see what they recommended for the XP25 engine and they are more concerned about belt size saying not to get the 100 amp, my first choice, unless I had a ½ inch belt, and a 70 amp if I have a 3/8 inch belt. [BTW they rate their 70 at 80 amps] I went down to the boat last week and discovered I have a 3/8 belt, so the 70 amp it is, unless I want to change the pulleys, and I don’t. Tom, I thought you had a Balmar, if you do and its a 100 amp, did you change the pulleys, or work some other magic?

So there it is, the whole ugly story, if someone feels that I’m being led down the charging system primrose path, please set me strait.

Paul
s/v Shadowfax

 

[Graham Cole]

I also used a delco on our hatteras for yrs with no problem and have a 65 amp one on my m-18 cheap and reliable. Thoughts on internet- Just had a client order 12,000 $ worth of Raymarine from defender/ marine . com. By the time we had to return incorrect parts it would have been better for him to order locally. And it supports your local merchant.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Paul - The electric guy where you winter is missing one point. The stock alternator will not become a high output alternator by changing the regulator. It can only put out so much and changing the regulator won't effect that. That said, I believe that it must be limited by my 75% rule or 51 amps x .75 =38 amps for sustained use. This is what your guy was referring to. The diodes shouldn't be a problem.

As for the belt, the 3/8" and 1/2" belts have the same side angles and bottom width. [This from Gates. I may still have the email at home]. The crank shaft pulley is about five inches while the alternator pulley is half of that, hence the 2:1 speed ratio. This means that the 3/8" drive pulley has twice the contact length of the driven pulley so I accepted that as being safe. My green belt runs a little proud on the crankshaft and water pump pulleys.

It is not a real concern as I can only get about 70 amps into my two paralleled group 27 batteries. It does give me a factor of safety on the alternator. Having a 100 amp alternator does not mean that you can generate 100 amps.

 

[Guy Stevens]

More on alternators

Leese Nevilles are the only hot rated alternators on the market, despite others claims.

What you can generate and what you can use are two different things....

If you go with a fairly standard cruising set up, say a 100 amp alternator, and a house bank of say 750 amps. Your usage dictates how often you charge. However being kind to your batteries and not letting them fall below the 50% charge rate, means that by and large the 100 amp alternator is going to charge at 100 amps for about 5 minutes, then drop down to probably about 60 amps give or take.

Charging with your main engine if you are not motoring is not very good for the engine, and since they are expensive to replace, I recomend something that will swing a good alternator use less fuel, better match the load, and is substancialy cheaper if you are going cruising. If you are hanging out and day sailing then your normal motor in and out of the harbor, or when there is little wind, or the wrong direction will probably make the main engine and a good alternator/regulator combination a fine choice.

The Honda generators seem very suseptable to salt air death, judging from the people that had them when we were out cruising.

A good regulator is a must!!!! Not the one that comes in the alternator, this is the big difference.

Larger case alternators do cool better.

Belts do come in different tapers, but they are rare.

I have field rebuilt a few dead balmars. One of my big money makers out cruising is rebuilding alternators. Generally the are killed by their owners in one fashion or another, but some just die...

If you are really worried about heat, you can remote mount the diodes, use arc welding diodes, get say 200amps at 14 volts designated ones, and mount them to a heat sink. Will keep all of the heat out of the alternator, and it will generate more than the rating by a long shot.

There is a lot that can be done with alternators and regulators, I could fill whole chapters on each. Without even going into the odd installs like remote diodes, water cooling, double fanning etc.

Guy

 

[Shadowfax]

Guy, I looked around the internet for Leese Nevilles alternators and apparently they do not have a web site, or at least I couldn’t find one. They seem to make alternators for trucks and busses. I’m intimidated enough with the smart regulator’s settings, so constructing an alternator with remote diodes is well beyond me. I have 3, 120 ah, Rolls, house batteries and a starting battery. The Rolls batteries are conservatively rated, but if I’m out for a couple of days the existing stock alternator can’t produce enough to recharge them even with a couple of hours under power. The refrigerator is the main culprit, but add the stereo, TV, a couple of showers, dish washing, lights, fans and an anchor light and we burn more then we can replace with the current alternator.

Tom, if I understand you correctly I can run a ½ inch belt on the current pulleys and not create problems. I like this idea as I’d much prefer a 100 amp over the 70 amp. What brand alternator did you buy? Was the mounting/adjusting arm reusable, or did you need a new one?

Thanks to everyone for their input

Paul

 

[Tom Metzger]

Paul - No problem with a half inch belt. I have a 100 amp Balmar. I couldn't reuse the J bracket from the original installation so came up with a straight alternator bracket from a friend who has a junk yard and tied it to the front motor mount bracket with an angle bracket.

Leese-Neville alternators are now made by Prestolite and are used on trucks and busses. Like everything else, some people swear by them, and others at them. Without dealing with the manufacturer's engineering department it is hard to get meaningful data on any alternator. Regardless, I don't think you can get a large frame alternator to fit in your boat without removing the engine.

The diodes are not a problem with any alternator. You are more concerned with the wire insulation being degraded by heat.

http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/alt_search.php

 

[Shadowfax]

Thanks Tom. Next time you are at the boat could you get me the part number of the Gates belt?

Thanks again

Paul

 

[Tom Metzger]

Paul - Now you know everything I know about the engine.

 

[Shadowfax]

Tom,

You da man! Thanks for the cross reference chart. I've been trying to find one. You should post it under its own heading.

 

[clohman]

Tom - et al. I think someone mentioned a "green" fan belt and your photo seems to support it. Any recommendations on where to locate a higher quality belt? My local NAPA shop didn't know what I was talking about.

Thanks,

 

[Tom Metzger]

Belt Info

Chip and Paul, et al - I tried to get confirmation from the NAPA website to no avail. I called the local NAPA store where I shop and they confirmed carrying that belt. Having the full size picture that I posted I can read the belt number on it, 4L410W

According to the Gates website the NAPA # 4L410W is a good number, and it is green. It is a Gates "PoweRated" belt # 6841. according to the Gates X-reference.

Attached is the Gates data sheet.

BTW, I hadn't mentioned that the Gates and NAPA #7400 belt on my list will work, but is not "heavy duty". It is 10 mm wide and is better than the light duty 3/8" belts you find in discount stores.

 

[clohman]

Thanks for the extra effort, Tom - this is very helpful. Hopefully this will resolve some of the stretch and "black dust" problems I've had with the standard belts.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Black dust is probably from mis-alignment, not cheap belt. The alternator is difficult to align with the M-25XP, and I haven't gotten mine as good as I would like. Of course, I haven't had any black dust since switching to a green belt. I do get much longer belt life and a lot less dust, it's green, though. I can't find any real specs on the belts so I can't explain anything.

Also keep in mind that the belt length may not be the same as mine and that it will not be the same as a 3/8" belt.

 

[clohman]

Replaced it yesterday - alignment seems good as far as I can tell with a straight edge. I believe my dust came about as the belt stretched/slipped. We'll see...