Conversion to Engineless Coastal Cruiser

[cave_dog]

About a year ago, I purchased a 32 foot Ericson Yacht with a Universal Atomic 4 engine. Despite all efforts the Atomic 4 has failed me over and over again. I have the money to replace the Atomic 4 with a Diesel, but after becoming a fan of the Pardeys I've considered removing the Atomic 4 and going with an engineless coastal cruiser.

I'm scheduled for a haulout to renew the bottom paint on my boat and have been giving serious consideration to removing the propeller when I have the boat out. I will more than likely have an alternate mode of propulsion like an outboard mount, but have been considering the large 16 foot oar mentioned in the Self Sufficient Sailor (which may need to be a few feet longer for my boat). I have already found a supplier of custom oars.

My one thought is that the oar placement astern will be complicated because of the necessary lateral motion and the placement of the wheel at the helm. I may be able to offset the oar from dead center but still worry that I won't be able to have the space free to make a proper sculling motion.

Does anyone have experience with this type of conversion?

I believe with the engine removed I will have a vast amount of room for storage, including a possible secondary water tank / emergency supply tank. And with the money saved on getting a diesel, I will more than likely be able to afford another (backup) autohelm AND a Monitor.



Thoughts and opinions?

Cave Dog

 

[exoduse35]

Having been becalmed very close to a rocky breakwater, It s not a choice I would make. I prefer the fabric engine to the iron wind but love having options! I too marvel at those who can brave the ocean as our ancestors did. But I also know they are all dead, many from challenging the sea unprepared to fight back when its furry is unleashed. I think propulsion is at least as important as a life jacket. While I could hope never to need either, there are always times you are glad they are on board. that is before you get into the discussion of a loss of designed ballast the engine accounted for and what effect there is on sailing characteristics. To each his own, but my vote is that if you want to sail without the engine leave the ignition off! At least see if you can truly do without a couple seasons before you take that plunge. Edd

 

[Emerald]

Having good power is a must in my book. Several weeks ago I was out on the Chesapeake with it blowing a solid 25+, and had a completely unexpected jibe that broke every slide on the main in one blast leaving me with just the staysail. The staysail alone was not enough to make meaningful headway against a 4+ foot chop combined with wind and tide. A lee shore or falling of the wrong direction from home were my only choices without kicking in the iron genny. Being able to crank up the Yanmar that could was pretty nice at this point, and made me also happy to have the solid 3 blade on her. RPM that normally would have me at 6+ knots was able to just hold a little over 3....

Just my .02

 

[tenders]

Before you abandon your A4,

1 - Have you discovered moyermarine.com?

2 - There are people in California who can provide you with a drop-in swap for your existing A4 for a ton less than it costs to upgrade to diesel.

 

[Blue Chip]

I would stop and compare my sailing to th Pardys.
They spends 95+% of their time out in the water, and when they stop it's a lot at anchor or at best a mooring ball.
Not counting the "shoreline" problems mentioned by others here, we do most of our sailing in and out of harbors, marinas as, on weekends etc.
I would really hesitate to duplicate their approach unless my circumstances were the same as theirs, and, being a chicken, even then I would think twice about no engine.

 

[Loren Beach]

That's a Lotta Oar

About a year ago, I purchased a 32 foot Ericson Yacht with a Universal Atomic 4 engine. Despite all efforts the Atomic 4 has failed me over and over again. I have the money to replace the Atomic 4 with a Diesel, but after becoming a fan of the Pardeys I've considered removing the Atomic 4 and going with an engineless coastal cruiser.

I'm scheduled for a haulout to renew the bottom paint on my boat and have been giving serious consideration to removing the propeller when I have the boat out. I will more than likely have an alternate mode of propulsion like an outboard mount, but have been considering the large 16 foot oar mentioned in the Self Sufficient Sailor (which may need to be a few feet longer for my boat). I have already found a supplier of custom oars.

My one thought is that the oar placement astern will be complicated because of the necessary lateral motion and the placement of the wheel at the helm. I may be able to offset the oar from dead center but still worry that I won't be able to have the space free to make a proper sculling motion.

Does anyone have experience with this type of conversion?

I believe with the engine removed I will have a vast amount of room for storage, including a possible secondary water tank / emergency supply tank. And with the money saved on getting a diesel, I will more than likely be able to afford another (backup) autohelm AND a Monitor.


Thoughts and opinions?
Cave Dog

No experience, but "thoughts and opinions".... well maybe one or two...
FWIW, about 15 years ago I recall an article on minimalist cruising in one of the sailing magazines that brought up the same potential solution as you propose. The author pointed all the problems cited here already doing without an engine in our crowded waterways, and then pointed out that unless and until you become as famous as the Pardeys, no one is going to offer, on a routine basis, to tow you in to the dock. They spent years (decades...) cultivating this minimalist persona, getting published, and finding a way to live off the "fame."
The problem is that if you do this, expecting some help -- and you will need some help at times -- you probably will not receive it.
Remember also that when the Pardeys were constructing their sailing resume, even the USCG was still routinely towing in boats.

You did not ask, but we have some members here that have done workable electric propulsion conversions. If for whatever reason you want to remove the A4, those electric motor drives take up a lot less room. 'Course you then would to find some room for a battery bank.

Anyhow, there's one opinion...


Further, if you are happy being under way at less than 4 kts when using any sort of aux. power, consider just replacing a shot A4 with a good used one cylinder diesel. I just watched a friend sell a good-running Farymann 7 hp one cylinder, for $500. IIRC it sold in a week on Craigslist.
That little diesel was replaced with a new Betamarine two cylinder, in a 30 year old Cascade 27. That's not the first person around here to upgrade to more hp in their diesel boat.

 

[Tom Plummer]

I suffered an knockdown, due to a micro-burst off of Mt. Washington, which ripped the chain plates out of the starboard side of the boat making the sails unusable. The current was driving me up onto some rocks the only thing that saved us was the iron main. I don't think that I would want to go engine-less and I am certain that I would not get the Admiral on the boat without a backup propulsion plan.

 

[ChrisS]

What Blue Chip said...

If you are coastal cruising, you'd be setting yourself up for serious risk by not being able to move that boat in dire circumstances. Think getting caught on a lee shore, navigating heavy ship traffic, trying to outrun the Loch Ness Monster's salt water cousin, etc. Maybe if you were sailing long distances away from land you could do it, but go watch the Pacific surge at any jetty on a moderate day, and imagine being smashed up...not pretty. An outboard might save you, but will be almost useless in rough conditions.


What's the problem with the A-bomb? Should be fixable, or it's easy to find a rebuild.

 

[cave_dog]

Interesting...

So it sounds like most people will always have, in effect, some sort of propulsion device. I have been on the moyermarine website TRYING to fix my engine for a while, but the engine has seized now and I'm not sure if I'll be able to recover it.

The two things I found interesting are
1) Diesel 1 cyl and 2 cyl might be selling for as cheap as $500
2) Electric Propulsion System

Nobody said anything about the oar idea, but I'm still interested in using an oar to maneuver in and around becalmed marinas and harbors.

Now, my real interest, if I find that the Atomic 4 has to be replaced, is how do I get this thing out of here?

Also someone mentioned a company that will SWAP out the old Atomic 4 for a new Atomic 4 at a fraction of a price. Is that company available in LA? I might look into simply replacing it with an already functioning engine (as I have been trying to fix my engine since I bought it from the previous owner).

Thanks
Cave Dog

 

[cave_dog]

Chris:

Problem with the A4:

After battling some other issues, I had come to the conclusion that the timing was off. So I bought a crank handle off the Moyer website and when I got it, it wouldn't slide over the crankshaft.

Being the IDIOT that I am, I tapped it onto the crankshaft with a hammer. I couldn't get the counterclockwise rotation I needed without removing an area of wood holding up my sink, so I tried to remove the crank handle and it was stuck.

Day was over, didn't make it back for a couple of weeks but left the #1 spark plug out. Came back to the boat with a wrecking bar, trying to PRY the crank handle off and still cannot remove it. In addition, the crankhandle will no longer turn clockwise or counterclockwise except for about half an inch.

So I'm trying to find a solution to get back on the water as quickly as possible. I'm not made out of money by any means and this engine problem has been the bane of my boating existence since I bought the boat.

ANY help is appreciated.
Thanks
Cave Dog

 

[exoduse35]

Help

from what you describe as your most immediate problem (engine locked up from a non running related failure) there are 2 possibilities: 1) you are suffering hydro lock or more likely 2) the rings are seized to the cylinder wall. The first can be cured by removing all the plugs and cranking the engine over. The second is a bit tougher but still fixable. Get some marvel mystery oil or wd40 or your favorite "penetrating oil" Put some through the spark plug hole let it work a day or 2 then work the engine back & forth till it comes free. The crank being stuck on may also benefit from the oil, but may need to be cut off as a last resort. If you can get it to turn over the rest can be fixed. You should have been able to set the timing with a light and the engine running. Also the engine should have been turnable by hand and not needed a tool to bar it over to begin with so I am not sure where you are starting from. It is sometimes worth knowing your limits and calling in a pro. (if I do I always watch closely and ask too many questions so the next time my limit is in a higher place) I Will watch for your posts on your progress. Good luck, Edd

 

[Emerald]

The A4 crankshaft has a opposing lugs on it to engage the crank handle. If you got the handle properly seated over the lugs, it doesn't pull straight out, but would require about 10 degrees of rotation before you could pull it off. That said, it is honestly a bit alarming that you beat the handle on to the crank. Did you see the lugs (they really look more like pins)? The concern is you've somehow smashed the handle on bending/wedging these into the end of it and really have a mess now. Also, you should never hammer on the end of a crankshaft, or about any other type of rotating anything on an engine. They were never meant to take that type of load or force. Same with prying it off now. The problems rotating may be due to distortion in the bearings and caps if you really smacked the $#!^ out of it. Also, there is no such thing as a $500 repower to diesel unless someone gives you all the new things you need, like propeller shaft, prop, fuel system etc. I think your best bet may be to call in a pro at this point. It may seem expensive, but breaking the engine is more expensive. Don't mean to be harsh, but just the honest truth given what you've described.

 

[Martin King]

I don't know what this handle looks like, but if the hole for the shaft is
bored all the way through, then you can get it off with a gear puller or
a bearing splitter. The handle probably needs reaming if you needed
to hit it with a hammer.

For what it's worth, I don't think going engineless is the solution to
your problem. Yeah, they are sometimes a pain in the ass but for cruising
I wouldn't dream of heading out without one. Many of us have had to
yank the thing out and rebuild or replace, myself included.

 

[bayhoss]

not to pile on...

As far as having an engine goes, let me quote one on my mentors from years long ago. "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"

Best,
Frank

 

[tenders]

In my opinion, while you might feel like you're over your head in terms of time or complexity with your engine's current situation, you're a really long way from changing engines (which is a big project because the geometry of the boat will necessitate a ton of additional modifications) and you shouldn't even be considering going engineless.

Your engine can be taken out of its cave, for sure, almost certainly in half a day. Unless the block is ruined, it can be completely rebuilt by you, if you have the inclination, or by somebody else.

Buck Anderson collects, rebuilds, and sells Atomic Fours. He's in Barstow, CA, cell 760-267-4512. He rebuilt mine in 1994 when he was in Oceanside and it's still running strong.

 

[C Masone]

Removing the engine will make your boat almost worthless when you go to sell her.

 

[Dave Neptune]

Don't give up yet!

Cave Dog, I saw your posts on hte MMI site and tried to give you some help. It sounds as if you have little mechanical experience, but if you take it one step at a time it will be simpler to fix than to change to a diesel unless you just want to spend the money.
I have experience using sculling oars and that was on an old 30' gaff rigger that was double ended. There were two chocks just ahead of the cockpit and one on each side of the outboard tiller. We had no problem moving the boat as long as we weren't in a hurry. It wasn't even that bad single handing in and out of the slip. UNTIL late one evening in almost no wind we found ourselves in the Cerritos Channel (LA Harbor) about a 1/4 mile from the slip and it was about where we were for an hour or so~~THEN ~~ BIG HONK~~ THEN PANIC :eek: ~~ as we hurried to the oars and the chocks. We pulled and sculled our blanks off to try and get out of the way of a fuel barge coming around the corner. He couldn't stop in time and we couldn't go fast enough, so as he approached we went up the ratlines and jumped onto the barge as the boat disappeared under the bow. When all was over the boat floated out from under the bow of the barge and was about 1/4 full of water and a bit scratched up. After getting back on the boat and pumping her out we sculled back to the slip. The next day my buddie bought an outboard bracket and a small kicker. So much for the puirist attitude on his part. It was indeed a scarry time.
Perhaps someone from the MMI site is in MDR and may offer to take a look, I would if I was in the area.

Think about it!
Regards Dave Neptune

 

[rwthomas1]

-If you have the aptitude learn how to fix your engine, take a class, etc.

-Make friends with someone who knows what they are doing.

-Hire a professional and write the check

Going engineless in any substantial craft, for anything other than a daysail, think DINGHY, on modern, crowded waterways, is suicide. You are risking your boat and potentially your life.

I keep my boat in a harbor that has a VERY narrow entrance. It can only pass ONE sailboat at a time at the pinch point. I have been stuck behind idiots trying to SAIL in, in NO WIND at less than one knot forward speed. I lose steering at less than one knot and start slipping sideways to the beach or the rocks. Since I couldn't turn around, less than half a boat length is channel width, I went to the bow and told him to fire up the diesel or I would just run him down. I'm not putting my boat in jeopardy so some tool can practice doing the impossible.

Sorry for the rant but engineless craft have no business in draft restricted channels, etc. where they put everyone else at risk. And lets not forget the USCG personnel that invariably will have to risk their lives trying to save yours.

RT

 

[CaptDan]

Buck Anderson collects, rebuilds, and sells Atomic Fours. He's in Barstow, CA, cell 760-267-4512. He rebuilt mine in 1994 when he was in Oceanside and it's still running strong

Best advice yet, IMO.

Number One Problem With Troublesome A4s: 'Previous Owners.'

Number Two Problem: Bad Press By New Owners Suffering Issues Caused By Number One Problem.

The A4 is an excellent, reliable, viable marine powerplant. Yes - even today with a host of diesel options. Moreover, for owners of good old boats whose market value is at best questionable - even with a spiffy new Yanmar - a rebuilt A4 is often the best choice. Do the math: $3500 for a reconditioned A4block, or <>$9500 for new diesel, prop, engine beds, shaft and labor (should you hire it out.) Oh - and yard costs if that's your bag.

Point being, if you start out fresh with a clean slate, and keep that slate clean, greased and happy, you'll likely be pretty durn happy too. For years, I might add. A4 maintenance isn't rocket science; it's just a matter of getting the manuals, learning the routines and doing them. Or, if you can justify the expense and depreciative loss at selling time, there are folks who'd be happy to sell you a nice BetaMarine.

As for sailing auxilliaries without auxilliaries - 'nuff's been said already.

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu" (reliably powered by a spiffy ol' A4).

 

[cave_dog]

Phew!

Thanks for all the sound advice guys. I didn't think about how much it affects the people who have to come out and rescue me, plus the fact I'm not nearly experienced enough to actually be doing something like that. With such a resounding answer from all of you, I've put my nose back to the grindstone to fix the engine!

BTW, Dave Neptune you've been AWESOME at helping me with the engine, thanks again! Following your advice I've got it unsiezed and am planning on resetting the timing and then she should run (without shaking)!

I'm still wondering about obtaining some oars as a backup to a backup type of deal and would welcome any advice on who manufactures oars and where to get the oar locks, etc. Has anyone in the past used oars on their Ericson? Would they fit an E32 with a steering wheel since they have to be installed at an angle off the stern?

Thanks again for all the advice
Cave Dog in the marina
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!