Downwind without a whisker pole... and: Parasailor?

[N.A.]

My E34 has no mast track (nor uphaul/downhaul) for a pole. Of course, I could add one, but it is not cheap (unless one is quite comfortable drilling and tapping their own mast while it is stepped...)

So I have two questions:

1) Is it tractable to just sail a bit off of dead downwind (DDW), such that a genoa stays full without a pole, or is that just a ticket to discomfort and sorrow on a longer passage (say, 2-3 weeks downwind)? I realize that would not be a racing strategy, but is it inadvisable if I am not in a big rush?

2) I have seen a "parasailor" spinnaker advertised; it seems to have a wind-inflated cross-wing that essentially stabilizes it and keeps it open without a pole. Is that a better (or equally good) option, or on a longer passage does one just need a pole eventually?

New Generation Parasailor - Hydrovane

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I am finding the idea of no pole rather tempting, as I always found them a hassle, and while singlehanding the hassle seems larger -- and frankly the safety issue dancing around on the foredeck to do it. I know Christian did it at age 90, but... I am much younger and yet much less confident than that. Plus, maybe the cost is similar/less for the parasailor since I wouldn't need to add a mast track or pole for it.

I may post this in a separate thread, but it seems maybe I should just continue here:

My E34 does not have a spinnaker halyard or crane, just two jib halyards exiting via a paired block at the masthead. One is attached to the top of the jib's roller furler... which raises the question:

3) For something like the Parasailor (or any asymmetrical/drifter), do I need to get a crane and external block added to the top of the mast, and then run an external halyard (either to prevent fouling the halyard attached to the jib, or to reduce chafe)? Or is it not unreasonable to just use the spare jib halyard for that if it's only periodic 3-week passage, and mostly only a few days here or there?

Many thanks for any thoughts/advice!

 

[Loren Beach]

Like the Kenyon spar system on our '88 boat I suspect that your mast head is set up for port and starboard spinnaker halyards. Perhaps the factory never installed them. Are the exit plates in place?

 

[gabriel]

Without a pole, the jib constantly gets caught in the wind shadow of the main unless I'm very active with the tiller and keep the boat dead downwind. It gets tiring after a while. It’s probably better to run with jib alone (front wheel drive) if you don’t have a pole. That being said, my docking pole makes a perfect whisker pole on my boat and it makes running easier.

foredeck: run some Jack lines, get yourself a harness and tie yourself in nice and good. Practice in calm weather and build confidence slowly. eventually you’ll need to go to the bow you should feel comfortable there. Cautious, but comfortable.

parasailor: don’t know anything about it but its interesting. Wonder if it’s recommended to use a bowspirit?

 

[Kenneth K]

My E34 has no mast track (nor uphaul/downhaul) for a pole. Of course, I could add one, but it is not cheap (unless one is quite comfortable drilling and tapping their own mast while it is stepped...)

I added a pole track to my mast a few years ago. I did all the drilling & tapping myself with the mast stepped in place. Pretty simple, just takes a bit of time.

As others commented in this post, https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/spinnaker-pole-track-for-e32.17077/, you don't really need an adjustable car track for a whisker pole, a fixed-ring will work: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/forespar-mast-pad-eye-with-large-ring-curved-base/400002



I'm guessing that your mast, like mine was pre-rigged with a topping lift/up sheave and exit plate. You just have to climb the mast to install the rope.

 

[Frank Langer]

Although a whisker pole is better for sailing, I single hand alot and for whatever reason, have decided that a whisker pole is extra work that I don't need. So I often sail 'wing on wing' downwind and even sail with my spinnaker, without a whisker pole. It takes constant attention to avoid the headsail or spinnaker collapsing if my angle of sail is wrong or the wind shifts, but it works fairly well.
Frank

 

[N.A.]

Thanks, everyone!

- I have a harness with tether, and always wear it, and have jacklines normally installed, and use them a good bit. But I do not want to be on the foredeck in high wind/waves if I can help it -- same reason my reefing lines are lead back to the cockpit (which is awesome.)

- My boat is an E34, but built by Pacific Seacraft after Ericson went under. The rig and hull are E34 spec, but the mast and other bits of kit are not the same as Ericson used (mast is not Kenyon). I have no exit plates as you are describing (up high or down low), and a sailmaker looked and did not see anything either, so I'm pretty sure I'm not missing it. I'm thus fairly confident that if I need a spinnaker crane/blocks up there, I will need to install. Based your questions, Loren, I will definitely check again with binoculars... but the lack of additional exit points at the base of the mast makes me doubt there's anything else up high.

--> Do I need a special spinnaker setup at the masthead, or is the local wisdom that I can just use the spare jib halyard?

- I'm with Frank re: extra work I don't need... for shorter sails. But for something long, where I might be on the same downwind point of sail for a day or more, I'll do a pole if it is necessary. For the longer stuff, it would be with a windvane (I have a Hydrovane; that's how I became aware of the Parasailor they have). What I was imaging was sailing on a deep-ish broad reach, such that the genoa stayed filled on its own/was not shadowed too badly. That's what I do sailing home in the bay, which for me is usually DDW -- I "tack downwind" to keep a more comfortable point of sail. I was thinking I could do that on the way to Hawaii (the dream), but the bay has not much in the way of waves, and no swell, while the ocean would have a good bit. I wondered if "tacking downwind" in a swell/waves, instead of being DDW, was especially uncomfortable, or bad for some reason, or windvanes work poorly with the swell on the quarter (I'm pretty sure Christian said that at some point), and so by the time the genoa is filled the swell is hitting the stern at a problematic angle for the self-steering.

--> Curious about whether "tacking downwind" with a windvane self-steering is problematic in ocean swell.

- My sailmaker strongly suggested a track, not a ring, for any whisker pole. If I can do it myself (thanks for the links, Kenneth!), that does save, but still... I think even self installed, unless I luck across a whisker pole and mounts, etc., that I'll be in for a couple of boat bucks. It always seems to be that way. And that is a good fraction of the Parasailor cost.

- The videos for the Parasailor in use do not feature a bowsprit. Otherwise I would have skipped the idea. They also show no pole, which I have to admit is awfully attractive to me.

Basically, I'd been planning to get a drifter, which would also require a pole (but not a spinnaker crane, according to the sailmaker), and then I saw this Parasailor and wondered if I could skip the pole and maybe still not need the crane...

 

[bsangs]

Granted, we've never gone "2-3 weeks downwind," but on several multiple week cruises the past few years, with a lot of sailing downwind, we've never once used a pole. (Have never used a spinnaker either.) And we actually do have a track for one on the mast, installed by one of the previous owners.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

@N.A. - We also are pole-less and lacking the track or mount on the mast. However, we do have the stock Kenyon mast with two jib halyards, a spinn halyard on a crane, and a pole topping lift sheave. We've got a hand-me-down asymm (no sock) which we use with crew. I've done bow for years racing with friends and am quite comfortable with it. However, with just the two of us, we're reluctant to use it.
Regarding the crane issue, I would think you'd want that. If you run the spinn sheets inside the forestay, the head of the sail could get bound up between the mast and halyard. The crane puts it all out in front of that kit. FWIW
I'm waiting to find a carbon pole at crazy bargain pricing before setting up. Or win the lottery.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Parasailor: A friend did a transport recently and used one for the first time. He said it was great, very stable. Then it blew up in high winds. Though this was on a catamaran so maybe of limited use to us monohullers.
I'd be really interested in hearing reports from any folks here who have used one.

 

[Loren Beach]

Not sure how low of a price for CF pole blanks can be found, but I bought our new radar post from this company, https://fortecarbon.com/
I received excellent help from an employee named Clint.
They can discuss most any sailing-related questions about diameter, layup and thickness. You would still need to source pole ends from ForeSpar or similar, Nowadays I wonder if aluminum alloy is much cheaper than CF? Whether aluminum with anodizing or CF with paint, be sure to protect the outside of the pole.
Subject change: it's interesting to hear about a Kenyon spar with a spinnaker crane. I thought that having port and starboard "wing" halyards for flying sails was SOP for them in the (later?) 80's. Live n learn.

 

[Bolo]

I guess it all depends on what you're comfortable with and in my case it was to sell my a-sail and buy a whisker pole. My boat had all the necessary fittings on the mast, that I used for the a-sail, so I was all set to go and haven't regretted making the change. BTW, I'm 73 and I use Jack lines (sailing solo) when setting the pole and find it easier to use that an a-sail with a sock.

 

[Christian Williams]

For days dead downwind, a whisker pole is simple and necessary for our boats. You don't need a mast track, just a stationary fitting. For one headsail, the height of the pole never changes. The fitting is easy to install by drilling and tapping the mast, which requires a $20 tapping kit.

I looked into the Parasailor, and was impressed. But it's expensive. And for a singlehander, any spinnaker is complication. I thought it would likely lift the bow and decrease the roll, since our boats boats roll when overpowered downwind.

It is certainly true that our boats can be jibed downwind for thousands of miles, and to get a genoa to fill happily that probably means at least 20 degrees off the DDW course. It would greatly decrease the day's run on course, since our boat speed on a reach isn't much different from DDW.

So, the solution is a whisker pole. It has to be quite long, so as to permit full deployment of a 130 jib in light air. Sail area is easily decreased by rolling in the genoa, but for that the whisker pole length must also be decreased. Such adjustments are daily in the trade winds, which tend to blow at 10-15 knots at breakfast and push 25 in late afternoon. The course SoCal to Hawaii is DDW for weeks.

None of this is necessary for local sailing, where we can just set a shallow course off DDW and jibe as necessary.

 

[Dave G.]

Yes a pole is the way to go especially for extended downwind sailing. This is the pole I use, not a CF but always worked fine for me. That being said mine was a 30' boat with a frac rig(J=12.2') so this was more than long enough. May need more length if you have a 150+ headsail though. The next jump up in pole size gets pricey. Maybe others with E34 or E35 can weigh in on length they use. Also if you don't have uphaul capability and you use a fixed eye on the mast you may want to put it a foot or so lower than "normal" IMHO....I kept a marked foreguy rigged to make it a little quicker to rig.

https://defender.com/en_us/forespar-heavy-duty-twistlock-telescoping-whisker-pole-7-to-15-407101

 

[Bolo]

As far as costs go for rigging a whisker pole, don’t forget those used gear stores before buying new stuff, that are in many sailing areas. Annapolis has at least two (I used Bacon sails) and I’m sure the San Francisco and LA areas have their share. Real deals can be found.

 

[N.A.]

Thanks again, folks!

@Christian Williams - Thanks! I had not dared to hope for your wisdom on this, given events; I hope you are managing OK down there.
My sense from your comment is that you, too think managing the pole (singlehanded) is less difficult than dealing with even a socked spinnaker?

@Bolo - It is very helpful to know that you found the whisker pole easier than an asymmetrical w/sock. I had been assuming the sock would make things easier than the pole. If a pole is easier, then that matters a lot to me. [In fact, I had thought the sock would be so easy I could use the Parasailor (or any other socked sail) easily on the bay here, where, as Christian notes, no one is inclined to pole out when sailing casually... but maybe it would not be so easy.)

- I will need a larger pole (@Dave G. ) -- I'll keep an eye out here (our local used store is Blue Pelican, in Alameda). After watching Christian's videos I am less inclined toward carbon fiber, and that's before the expense of it. Still, the pole, fittings/track, mounts to the stanchions, blah blah will surely not be that cheap. But less than messing with the masthead I think.

Given that @bsangs and @Prairie Schooner do long passages without a pole, I'll just try that locally along the coast, and sail off DDW. Cosine 25deg = 0.9, so it'd only cost me 10% extra time/distance to sail 25 deg off to keep the genoa full... that wouldn't bother me as long as having the swell/waves hitting at 25 deg on my stern isn't a known sadness-indiucer.

Any other advice definitely appreciated, but this has been super helpful. Many thanks!

 

[bsangs]

Thanks again, folks!

Given that @bsangs and @Prairie Schooner do long passages without a pole, I'll just try that locally along the coast, and sail off DDW. Cosine 25deg = 0.9, so it'd only cost me 10% extra time/distance to sail 25 deg off to keep the genoa full... that wouldn't bother me as long as having the swell/waves hitting at 25 deg on my stern isn't a known sadness-indiucer.

 

[Vtonian]

FWIW, in our constanly shifting light PNW winds, even for a brief afternoon sail, it is so much more relaxing to sail with a pole, as it keeps the jib from slatting. When it blows harder I'm usually more active with trim and dont mind sacrificing course a bit because I have speed.
I was able to find a second hand fixed CF pole for $200 from a racing buddy and just had to change out the socket end for jawed one, so under $400 total. Beat the docks, you may find one that needs a home, everyone has a pile of stuff they cant throw away.

 

[Bolo]

I was able to find a second hand fixed CF pole for $200 from a racing buddy and just had to change out the socket end for jawed one, so under $400 total. Beat the docks, you may find one that needs a home, everyone has a pile of stuff they cant throw away.

Glad to read this…We’re sailors and we’re suppose to be resourceful!

 

[N.A.]

I will keep an eye out for something cheaper, but Forespar has one listed as right for an E34 that is 10-18 feet long (part # 401106, telescoping; oddly they do not list specs, but fisheriessupply does, along with the 17# weight and 2"/2.5" ODs) I see from Forespar, though, that they suggest for a whisker pole having the( max genoa % * the J length.... there's math again...), which for my boat is 130% * 15 ft. That suggests I need a 20' pole... not the 18 listed (which may assume nothing bigger than 120%, or maybe an E34 instead of a 34-2 with longer J), but a size up. The need for a larger size seems even more likely if I ever got a big drifter (150-ish?) or asymmetrical. But then the larger pole is also heavier... so I ask you:

--> Pole length for E34: Any suggestions as to the correct max extension for a whisker-pole for an E34-2? Is 18' enough, even with a 130% genoa? 150% drifter or asymmetrical?

--> Topping lift: For rigging the pole, I understand I'll need a topping lift, though it is tempting to use the spare jib halyward for that... is that a bad idea? I.e., do I need to add one? T here is not a sheave/panel/etc for it already.

--> Pole downhaul: is this necessary for a whisker pole, or just for spinnaker poles (where the sail tacks/clews are free)? My E34 has no convenient place to attach something like that (toerail is not drilled, nor even metal), so unless necessary my enthusiasm for deck mounted additions is low.

Anyway, knowing the right pole size is obviously step one in trying to find a used one

Many thanks!

 

[ConchyDug]

Use the J dimension for your boat, a little more or a little less will work. It's not an exact science. If you plan to race having the pole longer than your J dimension will incur a time penalty. I wouldn't rule out a solid spinnaker pole they are pretty common at boater resale shops and more robust than a whisker pole, also cheaper. Might have to swap ends out but that's pretty easy. I had an adjustable whisker pole that expanded to 22' it was a lot of effort for no noticeable performance increase. I would recommend a topping lift of some sort for handling spin or whisker poles on boats over 27'. How you rig it is a preference thing be it controlled from cockpit or mast. A spare jib halyard might work as long as it runs clean and doesn't chafe. You might have a tang 2/3 the way up the mast for attaching a block on. For a pole downhaul I just use the lazy sheet as a preventer to a forward cleat.