Dyneema Dux for standing rigging?

[Sailingfun]

Please tell me I'm not crazy
I want to replace my standing rigging (3/16 stainless steel) for dyneema dux
I watch a lot of YouTube videos and ask a couple riggers.
Seems like a good material and (at least for me) my sailboat is a bank test for everything.
Somebody tried before or I gonna be "the" first one??
Suggestions?? Ideas?? Please, convince me I'm not crazy.. or I'm crazy and push me to do it!!

 

[nquigley]

This is going to be an interesting thread
... along the lines of, ... what's the best anchor rode? all-chain, chain/rope or all-rope.

 

[Loren Beach]

Dynex Dux redux

We might want to combine threads, since there is good information in an existing one.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...lace-Standing-Rig-Costs-Options&referrerid=28

 

[Sailingfun]

We might want to combine threads, since there is good information in an existing one.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...lace-Standing-Rig-Costs-Options&referrerid=28

I read previous thread but stop at 2010. 9 years later, we have pretense dyneema dux like M79 or M78 and more information.
I'm go ahead and replace my rigging but first I need to replace my chainplates.
But definitely I feel dyneema it's the good solution for the DYO owner.

 

[nquigley]

OK, I'll bite.
I replaced my lifelines with dyneema this spring, but that's nowhere near as critical as shrouds.
I'd say that deciding whether or not to use dyneema (pretensioned to avoid the stretch you'll get with regular dyneema) will be influenced heavily by these considerations:
- how big is the boat? (can you really save a lot of $ with dyneema over time compared to wire?)
- what is the main use of the boat (racing? day/weekend sailing? short-term coastal and Caribbean cruising? bluewater cruising?)
- how confident are you in your ability to splice dyneema, and how will you tension the rig?
- how will you measure the rig tension?
- are you factoring into your hassle and cost calculation that dyneema should be replaced every ~5 years? (compared to wire, which is at least 10 years, and longer if not in salt water, and even longer if little used and not ridden hard).

19x1 ss wire is still SOP for bluewater cruisers, but they often take a spool of dyneema with them to replace standing rigging elements that are found to be suspect mid-passage, and for jury rigging if necessary
19x1 wire is still the choice of most coastal cruisers because it lasts a really long time
But when you get into racing and day sailing, where you will check your rig each outing and you can bail and make repairs at short notice if needed, dyneema would be a consideration (for the DIY aspect for daysailing and for weight reduction for racing)

I don't know how to measure dyneema tensions - I think traditional Loos gauges only work on wire.

DIY vs professional service: A lot of cruisers have gone to DIY StayLok style non-permanent 'swage ends', so they can make new stays themselves when they're a long way from professional swaging machines. You might save about 15-20% on total cost if you use these and DIY instead of getting a rigger to make new shrouds for you.

Point of reference for cost: This spring, I had West Marine replace all my standing rigging, except my forestay. In addition to new wire and swaged ends, I also got all new turnbuckles. The total cost was a little under $3k. I avoided all shipping costs (old wires --> WM as the templates, and new stays back to me, with the old wires) by sending out and receiving back via my local WM store. Their WM rigging shop in Rock Hill SC was very very helpful and communicative.
The good thing about replacing standing rigging is you can do it in stages, to spread out the cost, if you want. I did mine with my mast up, so I had to do it one pair of stays at a time.

Good luck with your project!

 

[Christian Williams]

That all makes sense to me. (Yes, old turnbuckles should always be replaced).

I have new stainless uncoated lifelines. I don't really see how Dyneema is better. The joke is "wirecutters," but in no way do I think of stainless lifelines as dangerous in that respect.

You can't cut wire with a rigging knife. You can cut Dyneema. Psychologically that's an issue for me.

 

[nquigley]

That all makes sense to me. (Yes, old turnbuckles should always be replaced).
I have new stainless uncoated lifelines. I don't really see how Dyneema is better. The joke is "wirecutters," but in no way do I think of stainless lifelines as dangerous in that respect.
You can't cut wire with a rigging knife. You can cut Dyneema. Psychologically that's an issue for me.

I only did dyneema lifelines to save a little money, and because I was going through my just-learned-to-splice-dyneema phase. By the time I bought about 16 Antal frictionless rings to terminate the dyneema lines (they don't like sharp turns), I don't think I actually saved anything. Plus they stretched more than I anticipated - I'm almost at the max adjustment on the turnbuckles I used for tensioning the lines.

 

[bgary]

I'll see if I can find the thread when I get to a real keyboard, but IIRC Pajo (Sailing Cinderella) recently replaced at least some of their standing rigging with Dux, and are very happy with it.

Bruce

 

[Christian Williams]

I think they are in the South Seas, or elsewhere remote. That's a really good case for the Dux, and the confidence to do it yourself.

 

[Loren Beach]

Cinderella thread

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...7-Setting-off-around-the-world!&referrerid=28

 

[gadangit]

We did dyneema lifelines a few years back which have worked out fine so far. A little easier on the hands when going forward is probably the biggest benefit. I believe the offshore racing rules went back to SS, so you won't find them on any current offshore race boats. I'd do it again, plus we have all the fittings now. Accounting for stretch is the hardest part as noted above.

All of our standing rigging is 7 years old, so no reason for us to change. I did add an inner-forestay to fly a staysail a couple years ago. I made that from Dyneema Dux with some pricey fittings from Colligo. I'd do it again the same way. I have all the skills and tools for splicing, so it was a nice project. In the end I'm sure I saved a few bucks doing it myself in lieu of a rigger making a custom piece of rigging.

I would probably not replace my standing rigging with dyneema, mostly because everything is already built. I'd take things down piece by piece and just have some new ones made to match. We in fact did just that prior to sailing to Mexico last year when some scratches looked like cracks, even under magnification, on our V1 swage fitting. I got to do the sta-lock fitting with the rigger, so I learned something along the way.

I'm not sure that the benefits of dyneema dux outweigh those of SS for standing rigging in most applications. As a guy who has done a lot of non-traditional things on our boat, I do understand the desire to try new things and doing it yourself. Each application will be different. I don't think it will be terrible if you did it, but only for the right reasons.

Chris

 

[Sailingfun]

Thank you for your answers! The idea that someone can cut my rigging in the middle of the night is a bit paranoid for me. But I sail in the bay area of ​​Northern California and will never go beyond the Golden Gate.
I am in the process of changing the chainplates, I found that under the cover water penetrated that began an oxidation process, that is, it all started from there.
Then check the turnbuckled and save more problems. It was then that, reviewing estimates of a couple of local riggers, the truth that dyneema dux seems like a perfect solution.
Since my sailboat is under 30 ', I can avoid turnbuckles
And if I remember correctly ... it is not the catamarans designed by James Wharram that carry all their rigging made of natural fibers?
That is, the idea is not new, it is very old if we think of the very fast cutters, with mixed fiber and metal riggins and back, even Colon with his caravels.
If the only reason not to trust this type of rigging is the figure of someone sliding at night to cut my rig ... it is not a reason for me.
Now, maybe thinking that I only navigate around the area could invest in stainless steel and let a few more years go by to see how this idea develops. But for me, as an engineer, my sailboat is a test bench for the new.
And the only disadvantage I have found is that it may need a bit more adjustment from time to time until the fiber "stabilizes"
Just my 0.2 cents ...

 

[p.gazibara]

You are far from the first. Curious if you ended up going with Dux in the end.
We installed Dux on Cinderella in Tahiti after we had a port lower rod head fail en route to the Tuamotus. Glad the rig was left standing.

Getting new rod shipped to Tahiti was very spendy, and the wire/riggers available in Tahiti are pretty limited and cost prohibitive. We carried the Dux with us in luggage and flew back to Tahiti in 2018.

The actual install was… interesting. The crane was broken at the yard and new parts weren’t due in for another 3 months. We ended up using the mainmast of a friend’s 70’ fero ketch to haul our rig out and lay it on deck.

Once on deck I cut new holes in the spar for the new backing plates and cheeky tangs. We slung the new Dux shrouds in place and again used the ketch’s rig to install our mast once again. The things you can do when time is your asset.

Unfortunatey all of the stays were too long so I had to undo the bottom splices and resplice them to fit the turnbuckles. This was spaced out over a few afternoons and surprisingly easy. In order to remove the elongation I introduced when opening the braid to splice, I used several d shackles connected together and finally to the turnbuckle. Tightening the turnbuckles (both sides of the rig evenly) reset the splice and I left the rig to sit tensioned overnight. The next day I removed the d shackles and pinned the shrouds directly to the turnbuckles.

When the breeze was up we went for a sail and tuned the rig. It took a few sails to fully reset the braids, so the tuning took a few steps.
We then missioned Cinderella back to the Tuamotus, then out through the Society Islands, then back to Tahiti.

The next season we headed for Tonga via Palmerston and Nuie and finally NZ where we have been through the lockdown.

5 years into Dux rigging now with several thousand nm on them and I haven’t had to touch them since. Very happy with it as standing rigging, would not go back to SS. Something about hearing that loud bang when the rod head parted will forever ring in my ears.

I got an estimate from the Dux retailer here and it will be less than $1000nz to replace all of the Dux standing rigging, our boating club here has a mast crane we can use for free, so replacing the rigging is far cheaper and much more DIY than it would be if done it wire or rod. We will replace it before we head offshore again (who knows when that will be) and I’ll be very curious to pull test the shrouds when we do replace them.

-p

 

[Christian Williams]

James Wharram that carry all their rigging made of natural fibers?

The Wharram cats were designed to flex, Polynesian idea. Worked to handle the wiggle of two separate hulls. Brilliant, considering the issues of multihull construction.

I think Dux etc. is great for self-sufficient voyagers, but in a typical marina environment stainless remains easy, proven and not that expensive.

 

[p.gazibara]

James Wharram that carry all their rigging made of natural fibers?

The Wharram cats were designed to flex, Polynesian idea. Worked to handle the wiggle of two separate hulls. Brilliant, considering the issues of multihull construction.

I think Dux etc. is great for self-sufficient voyagers, but in a typical marina environment stainless remains easy, proven and not that expensive.

May not be everyone’s cup of tea. The late Brion Toss seemed to think stainless was a couple hundred year blip in millennia of fiber rigging on boats.
I wouldn’t go back to stainless, but then again, I wouldn’t go back to a diesel either
-p