E 25 c/b Rating Needed

[Steve Swann]

OK, folks, how do I go about finding out what my 25's rating should be? I think we are going to try to race Seahorse a bit this summer. Our sailing association has found some large flourescent orange triangles they want to hang on both sides of my boat to let everyone know where I'm at whenever I am afloat with other boats nearby. Yet I remain undaunted and undeterred...

FYI, Seahorse is a 1977 25' (not a + version) c/b version with an inboard diesel, 2 blade fixed prop, anti-fouling paint, and stock rig.

Also, can I get more of a handicap if I have the the BBQ smoking and offer brats and beer to the Committee boat?

 

[Chris Miller]

Your local PHRF outfit will have to give you your actual rating... Otherwise it will be "Protest City"...

Found one on the Chesapeake that rates a 249 with a 155% jib, you can get credit for the fixed prop, roller furler, etc... No rating help with old sails, slow paint, etc... Grill won't get you a gift rating, but a 12pk might help you not see the over early flag as often
Chris

 

[Steve Swann]

That's a Start !

Thanks for the starting place, Chris. The Southern Idaho Sailing Association (SISA) said to inquire here first and see what I come up with. I do have all new FX sails, although the largest foresail I have is a 130 and no spinnaker or assymetrical gear. As for bottom paint, I am still trying to convince my wife of the many health benefits of scraping and sanding boat bottoms.

I think for Idaho, the "Local PHRF" committee is probably still out snowmobiling. I'll wait a couple more days to see what others might post for me and go armed with all this information and see what I get.

 

[Rob Hessenius]

E-25 Phrf

Steve- The guys who run the races on my lake, saddled me with a 234 phrf. They use the Great Lakes , Michigan #'s. If you can let them use 249, god bless you. Rob Hessenius

 

[Kim Schoedel]

Steve, if you are new to racing, you may want to find some old tires to hang around your boat from the gunnel. It's not pretty, but it does send a message. The other racers will for sure give you right of way, whether or not you deserve it.

Not sure what PHRF your Idaho club will use. They may use the North West PHRF or I believe the Mountain PHRF? If I remember correctly the 25' Catalina's that race in our club have a very favorable 260 or so and our club has been useing the NW rating. The 249 or less sounds closer for your E. But make sure you let them know your head sail is a 130.

 

[Bob in Va]

Ratings

Steve, there is a national phrf book that lists every boat that is officially raced, but only by the club. My E23 CB rates 231 here for lake sailing, with +3 for roller up front. I think your E25 is pretty close to that. Many clubs don't give you a break unless your headsail is under 120 or 100 - they assume you are going to use a 150 or so and if you decide otherwise that is your choice. The prop should add a few seconds, of course, unless they work it the other way and deduct for folding props. Did you get your centerboard done?

 

[Steve Swann]

Off to the races....

Bob, c/b arrived in beautiful shape. I have all the materials needed to fill, glass, and fair it. Now I am scheduled to be up on a lift next week to drop out the old one. We should get the new one done and installed by April 15th and then it is off to the races.

I was told for my boat that the difference in performance from a 130% to a 150% was negligible and probably not worth is. So, armed with this advice from Bill James, at FX sails, I simply stayed with a hank-on 130% and a 90% and an ATN storm sail when it gets real exciting. Maybe I ought to list the 90% as my largest foretriangle, or at least see what it does to my rating. My prop doesn't fold, so I can argue this.

My wife still hasn't seen the personal health merits of sanding off that bottom paint. Maybe you guys have some ideas whereby I can try to convince her.

 

[Bob in Va]

foresails

You are probably right about the difference in foresails - you will gain a little in tacking ease with the smaller one, but lose some back on the downwind legs. The first weekend I raced I had only a high clew foresail, about 80%, but it would hang with the others pretty well upwind, especially when the wind was up. But off the wind it was no contest - they had another gear on us and we got used to identifying boats by their transoms. The next time out I flew an old mostly-used-up laminate 150 that was made for another boat, and that evened things up some.

 

[Steve Swann]

Bigger sails?

Well, I guess I could order another sail, Bob. What would you suggest? A 150, and/or an asym, or gear up for the spinnaker class?

 

[Chris Miller]

get whatever the biggest you can without penalty - probably 155.
non folding prop should get you 6.

 

[Bob in Va]

Depends on several factors

Like money and motivation. Sounds to me like you are at a stage where it would be best to run the 135 for a while and see how it does, then modify from there depending on what you feel you need and want to pay for. If your boat is real competitive with the 135, you might want to stay with that for a while - it is definitely easier to handle, especially when you are trying to do a quick, clean tack. On the spectrum's other end, if you find you are getting badly whomped, another 20% worth of sail probably won't make up the difference. My point is the 135 will be a better sail for any point up to a broad reach - from there a bigger foresail will start to have the advantage. In any case, race with what you have for a while unless you run up on a super deal, and after a while you will have a much better feel for what you will want. Building a board in two weeks, eh? I'm much impressed. Mine took me a couple of months. Just dropped it out to see how it looks after a year - real good, other than a few small abrasions where I used it as a depthsounder.

 

[Steve Swann]

c/b's Unltd...

Bob,

I will have a helper and I should be able to work on the centerboard every day. Nice thing about epoxies is the cure rates are predictable and morning and evening whacks at the project are quite do-able. We'll see...you are the expert, so now I am concerned!

 

[Seth]

Sail sizes

If you get some rating credit for the 130, then stay with it and see how you do. The reality is that in winds under about 8-10 knots, you will point higher and be noticeably quicker (provided equal bottoms, tune, and sailing) with a 150-155%. The real questions are:1).What are your typical conditions? 2). Do you get credit for the 130?

If you sail in a breezy area and get credit, it is a no brainer. If you sail in light conditions, the issue of the performance with a bigger sail, and the rating is a bigger question.

Having said all that, 6 seconds per mile will NOT make a difference in how you end up over a season. As I have said many times, a good start or a single windshift on 1 beat, can gain you a minute or more, so over a 5 mile race, small rating differences really do not mean as much as many folks think.

I am of opinion to make your boat as fast as you can for the conditions you sail in, sail it well as you can, and this will offset any rating probems-most of the time.

Good luck-2 cents accounted for..
S

 

[John Cyr]

E-25 PHRF Rating

Not sure if this thread is still active or its a moot point, but my E25 c/b was rated at 234 both in the gulf coast of Fl and also in San Diego where she lies now. That is with a 155%. Since my #1 is a 170,* I paid a 3 second penalty or 231. *(When I got her, she had an active IOR rating of 18' (1/4ton) and the IOR allowed 170% gennys without penalty, not so phrf)

If its not too late, I would recommend the 155, I m not sure they will give you any allowance for a smaller headsail as that is personal choice, especially if you prove to be a contender for line honors (I may be wrong, areas and clubs vary)

John

 

[Seth]

credits for smaller headsails

For most regions, PHRF ratings are based on 153 or 155% genoas, but many areas have begun giving credit for smaller headsail, so it should be looked into-but only if you sail in a breezy area (average above 12 kts). If not, go with the bigger sail even if credit is given for the small one-as the added horsepower in light air is more valuable than a few seconds of rating credit. Races are won on speed and smarts, not ratings (for the most part).

A real IOR 25...Nice-those were the days..But are you sure about that?
IOR did NOT allow 170% genoas (at least not without a big penalty), but MORC did. All base ratings in MORC were based on 170% genoas, and all IOR ratings were based on 150% genoas (not 155%). I know the 25 could be made to rate 18 under IOR (1/4 ton as you say), but it was NOT normal IOR trim to use a 170...

If you had an IOR cert, I would bet it was based on a 150% genoa, or if it has a 170% on the rating sheet there was a penalty for it. On the other hand, a normal MORC certificate would show a 170% genoa.

Trivial pursuit anyone?

Cheers,
If you had a

 

[John Cyr]

Ior/morc

What you are saying makes sense (and I will have to dig it out to double check, wont be home tlll next friday) but Im pretty sure the cert reads 18' with
the 170 (sorta makes sense as the other 1/4 tonners of the era were significantly lighter as I recall)
If my boat was ever measured for MORC I wasnt given any documentation of it,

Its all kinda moot since she wont carry the big ass genny in over 10 kts upwind (if that) and 14 max on a reach and that is pushing it, so I rarely ever fly it, Its fun to play with when I do tho.

John

 

[Rob Hessenius]

When racing an E25 you have to be on the ball at all times. They can actually keep up boat for boat with thirty footers and if you use your grey matter correctly you will beat many others too, but that is phrf racing. Good crew, good weather knowledge, good tactics and proper boat/sail selection make the 25 "sneaky tough". Bob from Va helped me out tremendously and I am grateful. Im not a race head, but I do participate in 4-5 lake races a year. In the beginning I was usually DFL or real close to that, but over the years with the same crew and more expierence I usually am near the top. The 25's worst enemy is light wind. Its success is related to working the board and having the right sail inventory or size hanging up the pole. You can also change its sailing performance by adjusting the board to different angles and change the weight balance and load for better speeds.