Genoa questions: jib car/fairleads & stanchion interference, preventers

[N.A.]

I have a (fairly high-footed) 130% genoa (on an E34-2 rig) and am having trouble with where to lead the sheets.

Lifeline/stanchion interference:

* To the inside track makes it a pain to foot the jib (though one can sheet a bit closer (maybe) upwind, and also the inside track does not reach as far back as the outside track. Plus when off the wind the sheet then compresses the lifelines as it goes over the rail.

* The outside track leaves the sheet really pushing on the stanchions/lifelines in an undesirable way when closehauled.

Are there tricks? What do you all do to prevent interference with the lifelines?

* Separately, the fairlead car on the outside track (stock, with boat, same as those on the inside track) grumbles as the sheet transitions from the winch to the genoa... not clear it can angle in the desired way. Is that a disaster waiting to happen (broken car), and I need to change this? It's tricky since the cars are way back near the primaries -- to add a second car for addiitonal fairlead the 2nd car would have to be at the aft end of the outer rail (and the boat) and thus behind the winch, which is OK I guess; would needd to check angle toe the combing where the winch sits.)

Preventer interference:

* I run a preventer back from the stem to the outer end of the boom (no nice full-length rail track like the E32's have...) The genoa sheet and preventer also interfere, rubbing against each other. With the preventer inside the sheet (so if I can move the genoa over to wing-and-wing, or back to sails all on the same side without changing the preventer) the sheet will also pull up on the prventer line moving the boom as the genoa slacks and fills in lighter air / waves / deeply downwind. Advice on how people here rig their preventers would be appreciated as well.

 

[Christian Williams]

Lifeline/stanchion interference:

I'd say that a little sheet-lifeline interfernce is to be expected. If off the wind for a while, switch to outer lead. But I never try to go to windward using the outer lead, and have to switch back to the inner track. Basically, daysailing, I just put up with sheets pressing on lifelines.

My model has long tracks for inner and outer jib cars, allowing many adjustments. But if a genoa was too long in the foot for my car/block position, I'd install a new block for full extension of the foot.

.Preventer interference

My preventer rig is always ad hoc and temporary--just a line from the center of boom to something abeam, a stay or whatever's available. It is only necessary to rig when Dead DownWind for long periods, and DDW is seldom really necessary. At bottom, I'm not a fan of preventers. DDW the helmsman has to pay attention. Any accidental jibe is completely unacceptable, and preventers don't stop accidental jibes.

Sailing schools talk a lot about preventers. But you have only to accidentally jibe once in heavy air with a preventer set to realize you now have to deal with a backwinded mainsail putting huge pressure on a temporary line from the wrong side of the boat.

Think it through, and consider why sail DDW if you're are afraid you might jibe, and sail a course where you are not afraid you might accidentally jibe.

When wing and wing, with whisker pole, a preventer is a good idea. Still, if the helmsman jibes accidentally, he should be replaced immediately.

 

[Loren Beach]

Still, if the helmsman jibes accidentally, he should be replaced immediately.

Hmmm... perhaps like the line from that movie: "Terminate. With extreme prejudice."

 

[Dave G.]

"86" him....as in "We have to 86 the salmon," & the driver.

 

[Dave G.]

I have a (fairly high-footed) 130% genoa (on an E34-2 rig) and am having trouble with where to lead the sheets.

Stanchions and lifelines seem to always get in the way, just part of it I guess. If I'm not racing don't really worry about it that much as it usually shakes out after a bit. With a 130 your inside track should be plenty long enough I would think. Been a while since I was on my friends E34 but he has a 150 and I know we used the inside track on that boat. If yours is really too short probably need to think about either adding on or replacing your T-track as you absolutely need that upwind. Not sure I fully understand why the lead cars are back by your primary winches ? If they are I think either your winches are way too forward or your lead car is way aft of where it should be. Do you have 2 cars on the outside track?

 

[bsangs]

"* It's tricky since the cars are way back near the primaries -- to add a second car for addiitonal fairlead the 2nd car would have to be at the aft end of the outer rail (and the boat) and thus behind the winch, which is OK I guess; would needd to check angle toe the combing where the winch sits.)"

This is what we've done for the outside track this season, after a couple years of not enjoying how much pressure the 135 genoa sheets were applying to the stanchions. We now have a forward block to set the sheet angle, and a rear block to lead the sheet directly back to the winches. It should no longer ride against the stanchions with this setup. (I don't know for certain yet, since she's been out of the water since early April getting some work done.)

 

[Loren Beach]

We now have a forward block to set the sheet angle, and a rear block to lead the sheet directly back to the winches.

With forward track and aft side-deck track on our model, that's how we lead the sheets. We have a reasonable-price Garhauer genoa block on each track and the aft block is at the very rear-most pin stop on that track, so that the angle up into the primary is significant enough to avoid overrides. Even with our 135, on the main aft track, that extra block remains on the very rear-most pin to keep the sheet departure up the winch at an angle.

 

[N.A.]

Thanks for the various tips and suggestions!

I re-routed the sheets to the inner track (where I do have two cars, a rear one like Loren suggests to route properly to the winch). Experimentation today indicated the sheets are not pushing on the lifelines in any serious way when using the inner track (probably due to the very high foot on the sail.) So I'll stick with this. I had assumed the outer track was for the genoa, but it now seems to me it must only be for... what? Spinnakers? My boat is not even rigged for a spinnaker, so it is confusing.

I also think I just had not optimized my car position properly -- the sail was so big, I assumed it must be very far back. Doing properly by setting so the telltales at all heights break at the same time the car moves forward far enough that there is plenty of room on the inner track.

My outer track does not have two cars (nor did my inner -- I added the second cars on that myself a while back.) Maybe I should get a spare set of Garhauers for the outer track, just in case I need to use it.

PS: Does anyone know the upper limit for windspeed with a big genoa? I kept it flat in 16-19 kts (apparent) today just by feathering a ton (just short of the sail starting to flow) and by avoiding being closehauled -- stayed on a wide close reach or more. Kept the boat flat enough, but... is that still bad for the genoa (stretch/damage the sail)? I feel like maybe one is not supposed to be closehauled with a big genoa in > 15 kts (apparent) or something, but I'm not sure if it's OK if one is managing to keep the boat flat by pinching/feathering like crazy, or cracking off to more of a reach.

Aside on preventers: Christian -- the preventer is, as you suggest, for the wing-on-wind DDW scenario. Really, the it seems most useful for holding the boom in place in lighter air but with waves that would otherwise cause the boom to move when the sail slats (already been useful in that scenario.) My preventer is rigged back to the cockpit so you can yank the line out of the cam-cleat and let it run if somehow an accidental jibe has occurred... not that I ever want to test that.

 

[bsangs]

Glad you found a solution. No spinnaker here, but the outer track is definitely for my 135 Genoa, especially downwind. It would not perform well on the inner track going DDW. I actually haven't liked it on the inner track much at all, but have promised myself I'm going to play around with it more on that track this season.

 

[Christian Williams]

Yes, outer track for genoa when deep reaching.

Genoas designed for heavy air are heavier cloth, or expensive composites. So a very light-air genoa ought to be changed when the wind comes up, so as not to stretch out.

But with roller furling, it's one size fits all. That's why we no longer have 170 percent overlaps, since the desired light cloth can;t be furled to set in 20 knots. A smaller genny, say 120 or 130 overlap, is designed to be furled to a scrap, but also permit sufficient sail area on a reach.

Rope or foam padding on the luff makes new genoes set well even when reduced to 50 percent. Few cruisers therefore worry much about damaging their sail--it;s the only foresail we've got, and has to be a jack of all trades.

 

[ky ed]

as far as dead down wind. I reserve that for showing crew its the slowest point of sailing, I show off how i can concentrate on maintaining wing and wing and talk simultaneously. just crack off a bit and relax when at the helm.