Halyard Replacements

[Chris Miller]

Hey all...
I'm looking into doing halyard replacements for the E38-200 and was doing some digging through the archives here. I came across this quote from Sean and wanted to see whether or not the same was true for my boat as the boat in question in this quote about sheave size. I'd like to replace the stuff without the cost and hassle of yanking the rig and replacing the sheave box. My goal is to use all pre-spliced rope halyards from APS.
Thoughts?
Here's the quote...

I'm not sure about the 30-1, but I just had a rigger on my boat on Wednesday, and he told me that the original sheaves that Ericon used were maxed with the original line.

So, I would say (although you should check with other 30-1 owners) that you can do it as long as you stay with the same diameter line (my situation).

Do you have your specification docs for the 30-1 running rigging? If you do, you'll have your answer....

By the way, Sean, that was from Dec of 2000...

 

[u079721]

Not sure of the question?

I had to replace the jib and genny halyards on my 1989 E-38 after the PO ruined them both wrapping them around the forstay. In my case the PO had already purchased rope/wire spliced halyards from Boat US in the same size. Replacing them was a snap.

But I assume you want to replace with an all rope halyard? That should be no problem all long as you stay with the same diameter rope. BUT the sheeves at the mashead have small grooves for the wire (at least mine did) and I would be concerned about using a line with a much smaller diameter than the original, for fear it might get caught and stuck in the groove. In that case you might want to swap out the sheeves first, which could be a royal pain (I could never figure out how to do it on mine, and I had the stick down every fall). The downside of using the original diameter line is that with modern materials you don't need anywhere near that thickness (and wieght) to handle the load.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

I think there also a concern that once wire has been used, it may leave burrs in the sheave that will destroy an all rope halyard.

 

[e38 owner]

I replaced the wire-rope with Sampson Warpspeed and have been happy.
I did have to make sure there were no burrs. I stayed very close to the orginal size maybe one size down not necessarly because of the sheeve but check to be sure you new halyards will work okay with any of your older rope clutches.

 

[Seth]

halyards

Yes, you have to check for burrs and be careful if they indded are wire/rope sheaves with a groove. The good news as has been mentioned is the new stuff is smaller in dia. for the same strength.
You MUST spend a bit more for the good stuff (very low stretch), or you will be VERY dissapointed in how much the genoa halyard (in particular) will stretch and ruin your sail shape-you will end up having to tension the hayard frequently, and maybe excessively. It is false economy to get the cheap all-rope stuff.

Good times,
S

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Seth (or anyone), while we are on the subject, how important is adjusting the tension of the jib halyard when you have roller furling with a foil and an adjustable (hydraulic) backstay. In other words, what is the interplay between the two means of sail control?

 

[Seth]

halyard tension

Whether or not you have a furling system, the halyard controls the fore and aft location of the maximum draft point in the sail-mostly independent of headstay (read backstay) tension. Ideally for a 135-150 % genoa you want the maximum draft between about 38-45 percent of the way from the luff to the leech. Draft should be farther forward in heavy air and farther aft in the light air-but not past about 45-47%. As the sail loads up with a building breeze, the draft will start to move aft as the fabric stretches. This is when you would increase halyard tension. If you have too much tension in light air, the draft will be too far forward (reducing pointing ability)and there will be a "knuckle" at the luff, making the sail very hard to steer to (telltales will not behave right).

Headstay tension controls the shape of the sails' entry primarily. The secondary function is to keep enough rig tension so that the headsaty and mast in general are not moving around too much in the waves. In light air a loose headstay (round entry) will be more forgiving to steer to and point higher. As the breeze builds the headstay will sag to leeward. This will move the draft aft of the ideal location (heel and helm are the result), and the entire rig will be moving too much as you hit waves (entry too round). Adding tension as the breeze builds will maintain rig tension, keep the draft forward and the entry will have the proper shape.

Does this help?
Cheers!
S

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Very helpful, thanks. Now, let me throw a laminate genoa (like my UK Tapedrive) into the mix. How important is halyard tension to the control of its draft? Frankly, I just hoist the sail at the beginning of the season. The only control I use is the backstay adjuster.

 

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, the only time we ever mess with jib halyard is if the furler gets fouled multiple times... we've discovered that is a symptom of being about 2 inches slack in tension.

We use the backstay on the race boat (farr 395) to adjust main shape and adjust halyard on the jib after.

I'm going to a North Sails University course on trim this weekend, I'll see what they say about jib halyard there and post on monday.

Chris

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

I have an 89 e 38 200. Rig is down. To remove or replace the sheaves is a piece of cake. There is a small cover plate that exposes the pin. Remove the pin slide out the sheave clean, lube bushing, replace. Done in 10 minutes. Sheave should be the right size for your halyard. Personally I cant stand wire halyards of any form. They always end up with meat hooks and that stuff is heavy. I dont care for extra weight aloft. If using high tech line for halyards like vectran or pbo I sky the halyards when not in use to keep the sun off. I strip the jackets off and bury the cover so the only covered part is what is outside of the mast. FWIW the sheaves on my mast were set up for rope and I just cleaned them, sanded lightly with 400 grit for smmothness, lubed the bushings and replaced. This can all be done with out dropping the rig provided you are careful not to drop any of the parts. As for headsail luff tension I always ease the halyard off just prior to furling the sail to keep the luff from being always loaded. When I roll out the sail I set the luff tension to the wind speed. I generally leave a few crows feet until it really starts blowing but thats just the racer in me...

 

[Chris Miller]

Hey Ted...

Ted, are you going to race that bad girl when she's done? If so, I'd love to come up and be rail meat or something for you sometime on a Fri night. Let me know.
Thanks,
Chris

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Racing my e 38?

Actually I'd like to race it but my wife will not let me spend the money I would need to for the sails. I was thinking of a nice matched set of 3DLs... I will probably do Gov. Cup or Solomons and maybe one of the Oxford or Fells Point races. When we get closer I'll let you know. I only have cruising chute (A sail) that flys off the bow so I don't know what downwind will be like. I thought there was an E 38 racing out of Solomons or somewhere south on the bay with a 114 PHRF. Do you know the boat? If not the ericson I have a friend who races a Mount Gay 30 out of Solomons who is often looking for crew. Boat has more sail area than the E 38 and displaces 6200 lbs with 650 gallons of water ballast on either side. Lots of fun to sail and race. Boat is called Stitch and Glue, my friend and I built it in Annapolis a few years ago.

 

[Chris Miller]

Yep, we race against Stitch and Glue pretty often. I race on American Flyer (farr 39) here in solomons. I'd just love to see the big ericsons out on the course. I'll watch for you at gov cup.
I'm in the same boat with the wife and sail budgets...
Chris

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Do you know of an e 38 racing on the lower part of the bay? If so do you know his rating and what he has on the boat, such as furler, folding prop etc?

 

[Chris Miller]

The only one I've seen down here is a cruiser called "Sunshine"... But if you check PHRF Valid list for the bay PHRF ratings you should find the couple that are racing with a Roller Furling 155 Genoa with Shoal Draft (I haven't seen any deep drafts on that list, but wasn't really looking as we're a wing keel) are running a PHRF Rating 138. I'm not sure what their overall sail area is including the kite, but they all seem to be rated together. My wife raced ours in a Women's Regatta down here to promote women's racing and you're right to want some serious new sails to be competative. I'm guessing the Reefer and AC condensers aren't helping the weight matters any either...
Chris


Actually, I just checked and "Ishky Baha" is racing out of Fishing Bay with a Shoal Draft Roller Furler 155 with a PHRF Rating 138... I guess that would be the one.

 

[Seth]

halyard tension

Geoff,

Your Tape Drive will definitely benefit from adjusting the halyards as discussed-you are lucky enough to have both controls (halyard and backstay), and the boat will absolutely see an improvment in the proper conditions.

Ted,

You are 100% correct in the way you are doing things with your halyards-more people should-they will have a lower maintenance, easier to use furler, and the sail will last longer (from not being left under high loads when not sailing) and be faster! Good job!

Finally I raced the E 38 Cantata extensively in SoCal back in the 80's at 114 PHRF, and we were VERY competitive in a typical mid-level fleet (against mostly good production boats) in a band between 108-126. The obvious things with this boat (even more than some other boats) are MIN. weight on board-get all the cruising junk off. Be militant about getting weight out of the ends (becomes a bigger issue in bigger waves). Spend the time on a smooth, fast bottom, have a folding or feathering prop and use it correctly. Backstay adjuster and some decent sails. Of course, these things apply to ANY race boat, and in any fleet the winners do all of these things. But, the boat was pretty good-upwind and down. Slightly better in flat water and definitely best between about 7-12 knots TWS.
Enjoy!

 

[Brian Lowman]

All rope halyards

Just a tip on using all rope main halyards. Be sure to use a shackle with a 90 degree twist to connect to your mainsail. If a straight shackle is used, the outside of the eye (which is now line, not wire) will rub the mast and start to wear thru almost immediately. With a 90 degree shackle, the inside of the eye is against the mast and the SS thimble will reduce wear.

I switched to an all rope main halyard and am very pleased with it. I went up one size to further reduce stretch and insure that it would not rest in the wire groove in the rollers.

Brian Lowman
S/V Gypsy Rose

 

[Geoff Johnson]

So Chris, what did you learn at North Sails University about jib halyard tesnsion last week (particularly with respect to non-Dacron sails)?

This is the perceived wisdom that I currently follow:

"Halyard tension is very important for sails made of Dacron or any such woven cloth.

***

With laminates, i.e., Mylar, Kevlar etc. tensioning is done just to point of taking the wrinkles out of the luff tape. Care must be taken not to over tension this type of sail."

http://marinersails.alaskamade.com/performancetips.html

 

[Tom Brownson]

halyard tension

Geoff,

Your Tape Drive will definitely benefit from adjusting the halyards as discussed-you are lucky enough to have both controls (halyard and backstay), and the boat will absolutely see an improvment in the proper conditions.

Ted,

You are 100% correct in the way you are doing things with your halyards-more people should-they will have a lower maintenance, easier to use furler, and the sail will last longer (from not being left under high loads when not sailing) and be faster! Good job!

Finally I raced the E 38 Cantata extensively in SoCal back in the 80's at 114 PHRF, and we were VERY competitive in a typical mid-level fleet (against mostly good production boats) in a band between 108-126. The obvious things with this boat (even more than some other boats) are MIN. weight on board-get all the cruising junk off. Be militant about getting weight out of the ends (becomes a bigger issue in bigger waves). Spend the time on a smooth, fast bottom, have a folding or feathering prop and use it correctly. Backstay adjuster and some decent sails. Of course, these things apply to ANY race boat, and in any fleet the winners do all of these things. But, the boat was pretty good-upwind and down. Slightly better in flat water and definitely best between about 7-12 knots TWS.
Enjoy!

Seth,

I just ran across this post. I am the current owner of Cantata. She has wandered up north to Astoria, Or. Current rating of 147. Gifford’s paperwork has survived and I have the PHRF ratings of 119 from back then. Fun to hear about it’s history.


Tom