I bought Dan's Ericson 30+ last July. Starting problem continued intermittently. Our wind at Lanier is fluky at best. A reliable engine to return to the marina is a must. The solenoid Dan added pulls 7.5 amps to close and send power to the starter solenoid which also pulls about 8 amps. A voltage drop test revealed a 5.0 (yes) 5.0 voltage drop between the starter solenoid and starter. This indicates a bad spot in the contact disc within the starter solenoid. In a perfect world this disc should rotate slightly each time the starter is used to prevent a burnt contact surface. Starter solenoids are cheap and easy to replace (does require starter removal). The solenoid Dan added was not needed it just added higher amp load when starting. I know intermittent electrical problems will drive you to drink. Proper diagnosis can be cheaper than throwing parts at a problem. I have learned the hard way also. (Retired Mercedes Benz Tech)
hard starting?
- Thread starter brassmeister
- Start date
Sampson - I have had the same starting issues that Dan described - push button repeatedly, hear click but does not crank. This happens intermittently but more often when engine is hot. I have always been able to eventually restart the engine but worry that my luck may run out. I've cleaned all of the starter circuit wiring connections, replaced start button and replaced starter/solenoid (Kuboto). I was ready to try the solenoid recommended by Dan but after reading your comment I'm not sure. Have you been able to solve the problem? Any advice would be appreciated.
Yes this solved my problem. Check voltage during cranking (cold and hot) with a digital volt ohm meter @ each location in the starting circuit. Begin @ the starter and work your way back. Voltage should not drop lower than 10.5 during cranking. Intermittent electrical problems usually occur @ higher temps. Bad spots in solenoids and starters can be hard to duplicate during testing. Additional fun part is that continuing to use starter with low voltage can also damage starter. It will probably take several tries to duplicate problem. Have a friend operate the starter button while you crawl around checking voltages. Interested to hear what you find.
Probably going off a little on a tangent, but reply 22 in this prior starter thread may be relevant. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/hand-starting-volvo-penta-diesel.21253/page-2#post-171954
I relocated it with a 'search' for "hair on fire"...!
I relocated it with a 'search' for "hair on fire"...!
Sampson - Glad to hear your problem is solved but not clear on what change you made. I'm still getting the click and no cranking problem intermittently. The voltage at my battery is 12.6 and drops to 12.2 while cranking (batteries are new). The voltage drop between positive battery terminal and solenoid feed terminal (B) while cranking is 0.2 v. As I understand it this confirms the positive side of the starting circuit is good. The voltage drop between the negative battery terminal and the starter housing while cranking is 0.1 v - confirming that the negative side of the starter circuit is good. I also tried installing a jumper between the alternator feed terminal (B) and Ignition switch (S) terminal. The stater cranked each time I turned on the batteries, never just clicked. All of this has made me conclude that the problem is in the primary (ignition) circuit. The key switch and starter button are only about 3 years old. I checked the voltage drop across the switch leads and it was very low, 5 mv. Thoughts?
New solenoid fixed my problem. I think i would get out the inductive amp clamp and check starter draw. Might as well check solenoid as well. Solenoid should be about 10 amps or less. Starter about 100 as i recall. All tests might show ok UNTIL symptom is duplicated during testing. It took a couple of hours, 1 friend and two beers before we could get it to act up when testing.
Pretty soon I'm going to need more than 2 beers! I don't have equipment/knowledge for inductive amp testing. I finished cleaning/replacing all connections in the primary starter circuit and engine started on first button press but after warming up it took 3 presses. So it might be better but still not fully fixed. Think I will replace the solenoid as you suggested. I put in a new solenoid/starter from DB Electrical in 2022. The solenoid is mounted on top of the starter. Any thoughts on what solenoid I should get? Appreciate the help.
I don't have equipment/knowledge for inductive amp testing.
Me either. But this is an excuse to buy one, since every pro whips that out first and YouTube videos suggest they're not all that hard to use. As opposed to my Chinese multimeter, which requires a PhD.
Cost of a clamp meter ranges from $40 to hundreds of dollars. Gentlemen? Can we go cheap, or why not? Recommendations?
Me either. But this is an excuse to buy one, since every pro whips that out first and YouTube videos suggest they're not all that hard to use. As opposed to my Chinese multimeter, which requires a PhD.
Cost of a clamp meter ranges from $40 to hundreds of dollars. Gentlemen? Can we go cheap, or why not? Recommendations?
A quick on-line search shows an inexpensive one from Harbor Freight at approximately $40. and several sources for a Fluke meter at $120 to about 140. You might have to add for S&H. (For comparison, our monthly 'net/cable bill is about $200. - so it's all relative...)
Took me a while to figure out what solenoid to get, but finally identified it as a Denso 66-8205 and was able to order it through a local battery shop. I installed it and unfortunately the same issues have continued. Here are two new thoughts that I would very much appreciate feedback on.
1) I’m beginning to suspect the grounding cable connection at the engine. As shown in the picture it connects near the forward port engine mount. I’ve cleaned it thoroughly but I wonder if it does not connect internally very well through the engine block to the starter especially when the engine gets hot. As previously mentioned I measured a very low voltage drop between the starter housing and battery negative terminal while cranking, suggesting that this circuit is fine. But as others have noted with an intermittent problem it is easy to be mislead. Any thoughts on where the best place is to make the grounding cable connection? One posting I read suggested connecting the engine grounding cable directly to the starter mounting bolt.
2) An earlier thread titled “M-12 starting mystery” discusses possibility that this kind of problem can be caused by the bendex jamming against the fly wheel teeth rather than meshing. Any thoughts on whether this might be my problem? Seems to me that this kind of jamming would be equally likely on a cold and hot engine. In my case the problem is definitely worse when engine is hot suggesting to me that the issue is more likely electrical than mechanical jamming.
1) I’m beginning to suspect the grounding cable connection at the engine. As shown in the picture it connects near the forward port engine mount. I’ve cleaned it thoroughly but I wonder if it does not connect internally very well through the engine block to the starter especially when the engine gets hot. As previously mentioned I measured a very low voltage drop between the starter housing and battery negative terminal while cranking, suggesting that this circuit is fine. But as others have noted with an intermittent problem it is easy to be mislead. Any thoughts on where the best place is to make the grounding cable connection? One posting I read suggested connecting the engine grounding cable directly to the starter mounting bolt.
2) An earlier thread titled “M-12 starting mystery” discusses possibility that this kind of problem can be caused by the bendex jamming against the fly wheel teeth rather than meshing. Any thoughts on whether this might be my problem? Seems to me that this kind of jamming would be equally likely on a cold and hot engine. In my case the problem is definitely worse when engine is hot suggesting to me that the issue is more likely electrical than mechanical jamming.
Pete the Cat
Sustaining Member
I have a cheap $40 one. Works great.
Pete the Cat
Sustaining Member
Couple things in the picture: The ground connection should be flat, with a lock washer, not a flat washer on top--not sure this has anything to do with your present problem, but these connections are critical as they handle very high amps for a very short time and, has been mentioned, good voltage does not mean good and necessary amperage. Also, your belt looks like it is in need of replacement.
Perhaps a very low percentage fault, but can you check the (old?) cable for continuity? Sometimes an ancient crimp might be losing its grip after xx number of years. If the copper wire corroded green as well, the ends might have gained some resistance.
I've been lurking on this thread, since I have exactly the same starting issues described herein... at this point my plan is to try replacing the solenoid, but, given that the boat is 27 years old, also to re-run all the wiring (and maybe connect the engine stuff to NMEA2000 so I can see if without going to the cockpit.) So thank you all for the thread.
I am writing here for a different reason: the clamp meters (inductive amp clamps) that are mentioned... yeah, baby, I'd buy one of those... but not for this. Or, more specifically, the 'inductive' part is the issue. The clamps just have jaws that close around the wire, and read the current without you having to break the wire and connect it through an ammeter. The problem is that the effect that allows this used to work is based on induction -- basically, the same way your electric toothbrush or iPhone (or induction stovetop) do their contactless charging/heating these days. Unfortunately, that only works for AC currents that change (usually pretty regularly) in time... and the solenoid I assume is semi-constant DC (or, at least, not 60Hz AC like most inductive clamps will be designed for, being household current.)
You _can_ get a DC current clamp, but it has to work on a different physical effect, the Hall effect, that can read at DC. The details don't matter for this forum, but if you're buying, make sure you buy a clamp that has some chance of working for your application. I think that would be a DC Hall-effect clamp. I doubt Harrbor Freight is the place to go for those. Anyway, YMMV but FYI. And Caveat Emptor -- I am not a Hall-effect current probe user, just aware of the issue with the AC (inductive, up until pretty recently (and maybe still) the most standard type) clamps.
C.f.: https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/clamps/inside-hall-effect-clamp-meters ... and yes, Fluke is where I get my DVMs and related tools; in my experience they make 'em tough and accurate, and I trust them as do many engineers/scientists.
I am writing here for a different reason: the clamp meters (inductive amp clamps) that are mentioned... yeah, baby, I'd buy one of those... but not for this. Or, more specifically, the 'inductive' part is the issue. The clamps just have jaws that close around the wire, and read the current without you having to break the wire and connect it through an ammeter. The problem is that the effect that allows this used to work is based on induction -- basically, the same way your electric toothbrush or iPhone (or induction stovetop) do their contactless charging/heating these days. Unfortunately, that only works for AC currents that change (usually pretty regularly) in time... and the solenoid I assume is semi-constant DC (or, at least, not 60Hz AC like most inductive clamps will be designed for, being household current.)
You _can_ get a DC current clamp, but it has to work on a different physical effect, the Hall effect, that can read at DC. The details don't matter for this forum, but if you're buying, make sure you buy a clamp that has some chance of working for your application. I think that would be a DC Hall-effect clamp. I doubt Harrbor Freight is the place to go for those. Anyway, YMMV but FYI. And Caveat Emptor -- I am not a Hall-effect current probe user, just aware of the issue with the AC (inductive, up until pretty recently (and maybe still) the most standard type) clamps.
C.f.: https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/clamps/inside-hall-effect-clamp-meters ... and yes, Fluke is where I get my DVMs and related tools; in my experience they make 'em tough and accurate, and I trust them as do many engineers/scientists.
Captain Pete
Member II
Ray is spot on. That red wire (if i see it correctly - seems unusual to have a red ground wire) going to the engine mount is not a good connection - everything needs to be flat and snug. Are you sure that is the main ground wire? Maybe there is another going to the engine block as well. Likewise on the belt looks like some loose teeth.
I have had experience with an unreliable solenoid on a yanmar starter that often didnt work until it was tapped with the end of screw driver. Removal and cleaning of the innards with some WD 40 did the trick for a while, then solenoid replacement solved the problem altogether.
Thanks to everyone for their comments. I will try to flatten out the cable connection and add a lock washer. Also guess I should replace the belt. I know the picture is a bit confusing but only black wires attach to the bolt on the engine (all the red wires go to the solenoid). The large cable is definitely the main ground from the engine and is brand new so no corrosion or bad crimps. Still hoping to get some thoughts on where might be a better place to attach the ground cable and whether mechanical jamming of the bendex might be the problem.
Eureka! Finally solved my starting problem by running a grounding cable directly to the starter. As an experiment I ran an old battery cable from one of the starter mounting bolts to the point where the battery ground wire connects to the engine. The engine started repeatedly on the first press even when hot. This approach bypasses using the engine block to carry the current from the starter to the battery. Here’s my layman understanding of what was happening. Each time the starer button is pressed it tries to send a jolt of electricity to the starter and then through the engine block back to the negative battery terminal. There are multiple paths that the electricity can take through the engine block. As it randomly searches for the best path, it sometimes finds a good path and sometimes doesn’t. As the engine heats up the resistance increases and the number of good paths decreases. This is why it sometimes took 10 or more presses for the hot engine to start. Running a copper ground wire to the starter provides a direct path for the electricity with a much better conductor than the cast iron engine block. Also the copper cable’s resistance is much less affected by heat than the iron engine block. Apparently the engine block works OK in the grounding circuits for the instruments and glow plugs but not for the high draw starter circuit.
I had assumed that the ground circuit was fine because I had thoroughly cleaned the connections and installed new cables. Also I had measured a very low voltage drop between the battery negative terminal and the starter housing. This measurement has to be taken while the starter is cranking and I think the voltage drop was low because one of the good paths thorough the block had been established.
My final solution involved installing a ground bus bar on the port side rail under the engine. I ran a cable from the negative battery terminal to the bus bar and another cable from the bus to the starter mounting bolt. Also installed other ground wires to the bus bar. BTW this modification was recommended in the classic article “Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade” on the Marine How To web site. I did all the recommended modifications except this one years ago. It appears in the very last paragraph and for some reason had not seemed important to me. Live and learn! I hope this helps others who have had this problem. Thanks to everyone for their encouragement and comments.
I had assumed that the ground circuit was fine because I had thoroughly cleaned the connections and installed new cables. Also I had measured a very low voltage drop between the battery negative terminal and the starter housing. This measurement has to be taken while the starter is cranking and I think the voltage drop was low because one of the good paths thorough the block had been established.
My final solution involved installing a ground bus bar on the port side rail under the engine. I ran a cable from the negative battery terminal to the bus bar and another cable from the bus to the starter mounting bolt. Also installed other ground wires to the bus bar. BTW this modification was recommended in the classic article “Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade” on the Marine How To web site. I did all the recommended modifications except this one years ago. It appears in the very last paragraph and for some reason had not seemed important to me. Live and learn! I hope this helps others who have had this problem. Thanks to everyone for their encouragement and comments.
Pete the Cat
Sustaining Member
I always wonder how many battery banks and electrical systems are replaced annually because of poor or corroded ground connections.