How bad is it? (Part 3: Stuffing Box)

[mherrcat]

Once again, looking for opinions on what this might cost to have a yard do the work.

This is what most likely caused the shaft coupling corrosion, but is probably the least expensive to fix...except that the shaft will have to be removed to replace the connecting hose, which is sketchy at this point.

 

[Jarod]

I just went through this same ordeal on my E27. I paid the guys in the yard one day labor to give it a try and it was a total loss (it took me 3 evenings after work but got it off myself). My advice is do all the work yourself. If you can get a sawzall at the coupling then cut a triangle inside the circumference of the coupling bolts. You want to cut almost to the mating surface of the coupling and the output flange and then finish the last bit off by hand so you don't score the output flange to deeply. My coupling looked pretty much like yours and I ended up having to cut the shaft to get it out as the coupling was still seized to the shaft after i cut the center of it out. If you do the work yourself then you will still be ahead of the game even after purchasing a new coupling, dripless shaft seal and shaft, plus you will have the security of knowing you have all new components. If you have the sawzall great if not get one and purchase at least 10 of the metal cutting blades (go for the short blades as I am sure your access is probably limited as mine was very tight). Once you have cut out that center piece (hub) on the coupling you will just have a bit of metal hanging on each remaining bolt and a pipe wrench will twist them out without too much trouble.


*** As always this advice is worth what you paid for it...but believe me this job is very fresh in my mind and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again if I had to.

jarod.

 

[Randy Rutledge]

I removed the stuffing box to prop log hose on my 1978 E29 last spring and tried to find a replacement but could not do so in the time limit I had. The thirty year old hose looked fine and was not cracked or showing any signs of fatigue. I ended up reinstalling the tube and feeling confident about it. One of the issues I had is that the prop log and the end of stuffing box tube were 1/8” different in size. The way it looked the stuffing box end was just squeezed down with the double clamps.

I would try to save the coupling and stuffing box unless you want to go to a dripless seal for the shaft.

Wire brush and clean as well as possible, penetrating oil and a lot of tapping on the bolts with a hammer to help the oil penetrate and things loosen. If the shaft has a wear mark from the packing and the tubing is long enough you can cut the tube off a little which will relocate the packing contact surface on the shaft.

 

[Maine Sail]

One word of caution!!!!!!!!!

DO NOT, as in NEVER EVER, EVER, use the spray feature of any real penetrating oil like PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, Thrust or Kroil anywhere near the transmissions output seal & flange!

If you get any penetrating oil near that output flange, and it makes it's way down to the output shaft, which it will, you are screwed and will also be rebuilding the transmission to replace the output seal.

Use a q-tip or artists paint brush and spray the penetrating oil into the cap well away from the tranny or engine gaskets. True penetrating oils eat engine seals for break fast so be very very careful as it does not take much penetrating oil to ruin a seal..

My advice would be to cut the shaft and order a new shaft and coupling. Then remove the stuffing box and replace the hose with Buck Algonquin stuffing box specific hose and clean up the original stuffing box with a drill, brass brush and some oxalic acid. It will look like brand new when you're done and last for many more years. Use Gore GFO packing and it will drip very, very little. The best iption IMHO is a PSS bu that will just add to the cost of the new shaft and coupling.

Don't bother wasting your time trying to get the coupling off cause you'll wind up cutting it anyway. In situations like yours the only way to get it off is to pull teh engine and then pull teh shaft into the boat for removal. Once the shaft is out you can take it to a machine shop wher they will press the coupling off. The reality is that your shaft is probably worn and out of true anyway so reconditioning ot would cost nearly as much as a new one..

 

[Emerald]

Before anyone panics because of using PB Blaster on an area where there is a seal, please see this link:

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=6704&highlight=PB+Blaster

I am only posting this as there seems to be some question about which types of penetrants may pose problems. Any additional information from manufacturers, independent tests etc. would be helpful.

 

[Maine Sail]

You guys can choose to believe what you want. I am the one who actually had this happen to them.

I had a BONE DRY tranny seal, actually my entire engine is BONE dry, and the boat was out of the water so it was NOT spinning and wearing. I sprayed some of the boats to the flange and they inadvertently dripped onto the output flange.

When I came back to the boat the next day to loosen the nuts the entire contents of my transmission (tranny fluid) were in the bilge!! Again nothing moved and the ONLY change was that PB Blaster dripped onto the output flange and "softened", as PB says, or ate, as I say, my seal.

Hansen Marine, the Westerbeke dealer who rebuilt my tranny, said this is certainly NOT the first case they have seen and said it is actually kind of common.

PB Blaster is clearly in the business of selling you product not giving you the whole truth. The word "soften" is a nice way to say yes it will destroy the seal as once a seal is softened it will not harden back up. I spoke with numerous seal manufacturers about this before laying out $1800.00 for a rebuild..

Again, I am supplying this info to help you guys. I still use PB Blaster and feel it is one of the best penetrating oils on the market but you do need to be very, very careful around engine & transmission seals and it is NOT difficult and maybe takes 30 second more of your time to do it right and not jepordize your seal.

Please, please, please be very careful reading the advice on that other thread and understand that "soften" can mean destroy!!! I know because I'm $1800.00 lighter in my wallet!

 

[Emerald]

Hi Maine Sail,

Thanks for the additional first hand information. Your experience and research certainly indicates a real issue here. I'd love to see some lab tests were they used different materials, e.g. viton, to see how they react to these chemicals.

Do you have any information on some of the other penetrants? Currently out, but getting ready to order some more Kroil. Does it fall into the same catagory as PB Blaster for seals?

Thanks for the info.

 

[Maine Sail]

Petroleum

Penetrating petroleum distillate products can damage many types of seals. PB for example admits right on the can that it can be used to "soften" and "re-condition" o-rings and seals. Soften is another word for attack, eat or destroy.

Kroil is also a petroleum based product though a better penetrating fluid than PB. I don't have any first hand experience with Kroil eating seals, as I won't make that mistake again. I think part of the problem is that by the time peoples cars and such get rusty enough that they need PB, Kroil, Thrust or Liquid Wrench that they don't relate the seal leaking to the use of a penetrating fluid.

In my case it was very, very obvious as it had been bone dry for years and years and was bone dry while on the hard not moving until I got PB on it then the seal "softened" or disintegrated and drained all my tranny fluid into the bilge. All I can say is that the seals used in ZF/Hurth transmissions, to at least 2003 when my engine was made, are NOT resistant to PB and may not be to the others as well.

If you have silicone seals (rare) I'd think it would be fine but with traditional lip seals you may be not so fine. Even Viton only says resistant to most chemicals not all.

From Viton web site:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"When selecting which Viton® to use in powertrain application, all aspects of the sealing environment must be taken into consideration. In powertrain applications, oil resistance has always been the primary need. But today, aggressive lubricants, fuels and low temperature performance can significantly impact the performance of sealing materials.[/FONT]"

 

[Emerald]

Any idea on WD-40's impact on seals?

 

[Maine Sail]

No but it does not really penetrate (total scam as far as I'm concerned as a penetrating oil) and from what I understand is basically just kerosene (Stoddard Solvent) with a few additives. Most people don't realize that WD-40 (Water Displacement 40th try at the compound) was designed as a water displacement product for electrical connections in the 50's. Since then there have been many better water displacement products made that don't attract dirt or turn to a gum like shelac on the surface. It has never been a penetrating oil though many still wrongly believe it works for this purpose.

I have not owned a can of WD-40 in 20 years, no wait, I did because it came with my current boat and I think I threw it out. WD-40 has literally NO good practical use for it unless you want to grease up your "Twister" game board and have some fun with the old lady. If you want to use it to prevent rust there are far better products, if you want to use it to penetrate you'll die before it does anything... WD-40 is a joke and for every claimed use there are far better and more effective products one can use..

Sorry for the rant but I despise companies that sell "well marketed" snake oils/junk..

P.S. How much time, money and headaches have been suffered over broken or stripped bolts by folks wrongly using WD-40 thinking it would loosen a nut bolt or stud over the last 30-40 years. I know of many as I'm sure you guys do too. If you want to free rusted bolts Kroil, Thrust or PB Blaster are the products to use and they WORK!

 

[treilley]

Another misconception is that WD-40 is a lubricant. It will actually thin existing lubricants making things much worse. I think I have a can of it in the basement that I have had for probably well over 10 years. I doubt it sprays any more. In fact, I have probably robbed the spray nozzle off it for some other can.

I learned some years ago from an old timer that if you are in a pinch for Penetrating oil, hydralic jack oil works pretty well. And you can be sure it will not wreck the seals

 

[mherrcat]

That was my post about the PB Blaster after I spoke with their technical support people. I was only trying to get some additional information. I was not trying to start a war.

Erring on the side of caution is probably the best approach.

 

[Maine Sail]

That was my post about the PB Blaster after I spoke with their technical support people. I was only trying to get some additional information. I was not trying to start a war.

Erring on the side of caution is probably the best approach.

Sorry Mherrcat was not directed at you or your research! I was not trying to start a war but rather trying to prevent one between spouses when the check book comes yet again this time out for a tranny re-build..

It's always good to check every avenue you can, as you did. My frustration lies with a company that claims the softening of rubber seals is "restoring" them when in fact it can and does ruin them. Changing the consistency of a seal is never good for it when it is in perfect operating condition already. They gave you honest advice "it softens" but it is misleading advice at best..

 

[Emerald]

I'm not after any war or debate either. Only interested in helping the group nail down what is best, and it seems that caution is the right approach on this one. Been playing with engines my whole life, and grew up in a racing family (SCCA stuff). Hadn't ever encountered a scenario where a penetrant had killed a seal on me, but then again, I honestly don't think I've ever sprayed a seal with one. More apt to be a suspension piece I was working on that required such chemical approaches (and then we get the torch out when that doesn't work)