Instrument wiring, help!

[nukey99]

I have a 1983 E35-3, I am the 4th owner of the vessel. I am looking to upgrade the navigation system, which is old and failing. What is currently in place is an old pathfinder radar, with the display on a mount in the companionway, which actually seems to almost work. The nav system is an old Lowrance chart plotter which is on a portable display at the binnacle. The wiring on the lowrance is pretty straightforward , there is a switch under the near the engine cluster which energizes it, The old radar system is energized off the switch labeled radar on the 12 volt panel.

I am replacing both with a B&G system. First step is the MFD which I want to mount at the companionway. This allows me to keep it secured in the boat. This system will also mirror data to an IPAD, so I can use that at the helm.

With the Radar unit, I can grab the hot and the ground leads from the switch located near the help, that is pretty easy to do.

I will need to run an Ethernet 100B t line from the radar unit to the navigation head, that is not complex, but requires contortion etc to run the line.

Getting power to the head unit in the companion way is the challenge. I've traced the wire from the panel with a Fox and Hounds and it had continuity to the wire that was associated with the old unit. I cut that wire, planing to splice the new unit to it with a fuse and save a boat load of work. I can not find measurable voltage at the wire, which is very weird.

An option I'm considering is grabbling a hot lead and ground from my depth finder display, and then running it to the MFD display unit the amperage is low. That would allow me to start the GPS unit with other instruments. Then if we wanted Radar, we could start that from the switch in the helm area.

Unfortunately, the wiring behind the panel is pretty difficult to work on, and I'm looking for ways to avoid that.

Both our Catalina and our Tiara, had panel on hinges, and enough slack in lines to allow relatively easy work. IMHO, Ericson didn't do a great job in this area.

Any input or thoughts will be very much appreciated. I am committed to do this myself, and unwilling to pay a "boat expert" 2k to do the work.

 

[Drewm3i]

I have a 1983 E35-3, I am the 4th owner of the vessel. I am looking to upgrade the navigation system, which is old and failing. What is currently in place is an old pathfinder radar, with the display on a mount in the companionway, which actually seems to almost work. The nav system is an old Lowrance chart plotter which is on a portable display at the binnacle. The wiring on the lowrance is pretty straightforward , there is a switch under the near the engine cluster which energizes it, The old radar system is energized off the switch labeled radar on the 12 volt panel.

I am replacing both with a B&G system. First step is the MFD which I want to mount at the companionway. This allows me to keep it secured in the boat. This system will also mirror data to an IPAD, so I can use that at the helm.

With the Radar unit, I can grab the hot and the ground leads from the switch located near the help, that is pretty easy to do.

I will need to run an Ethernet 100B t line from the radar unit to the navigation head, that is not complex, but requires contortion etc to run the line.

Getting power to the head unit in the companion way is the challenge. I've traced the wire from the panel with a Fox and Hounds and it had continuity to the wire that was associated with the old unit. I cut that wire, planing to splice the new unit to it with a fuse and save a boat load of work. I can not find measurable voltage at the wire, which is very weird.

An option I'm considering is grabbling a hot lead and ground from my depth finder display, and then running it to the MFD display unit the amperage is low. That would allow me to start the GPS unit with other instruments. Then if we wanted Radar, we could start that from the switch in the helm area.

Unfortunately, the wiring behind the panel is pretty difficult to work on, and I'm looking for ways to avoid that.

Both our Catalina and our Tiara, had panel on hinges, and enough slack in lines to allow relatively easy work. IMHO, Ericson didn't do a great job in this area.

Any input or thoughts will be very much appreciated. I am committed to do this myself, and unwilling to pay a "boat expert" 2k to do the work.

You are going to need to run a power lead from the panel to the MFD of the correct size--you can reuse old wire if not corroded or you can use the old wire to pull new wires through. I would at least check the grounds.

You will also need to install a NMEA 2K backbone from the panel switch and be able to daisy chain the connector wires throughout the boat. You will also need to run the tri-data, temp/depth/knot-meter transducer wire to the MFD to be shared with devices across the network. You have A LOT of work ahead of you getting everything setup and connected. You will also likely need to unzip the headliner and maybe take off some floorboards to access wires running from one side to the under the floorboards in the conduits within the TAFG.

Things needed to pull wires:
-a wire snake
-electrical tape/zip ties
-string or thin line

 

[nukey99]

Drew - I have no need to integrate the trip-data and all the other instruments. Everything will be running standalone. Phase 1 will be getting the chart plotter/MFD operational. All that requires is 12 volts and a ground. The MFD device has a 3 amp fuse, so I can tell that its power draw is very low. I am switching out the old Raymarine Path finder radar with a B&G system. But, I'm not integrating the components. So, I can't think of a reason I would need an NMEA backbone.

My sailing instruments are on the port side bulkhead in the cockpit and are covered by a small box in the cabin. I can remove that box and daisy chain off the instruments, I hope. To my eyes, the wires to the instruments look to be 12 ga which should be more than enough. A look at Raymarine docks on old instruments indicate 70 ma maximum draw. All four instruments, depth, wind/tridata, autopilot and speed through water, should consume no more than 500 ma.

The radar will be a different challenge, and I'll start a separate thread for that one.

 

[Drewm3i]

Typically modern electronics require a
NMEA 2K backbone to function and share data and functionality across displays.

For instance, if you want your small, multifunction displays to have a compass heading, you will need a GPS antenna on network. Or if you want your chart plotter to have access to wind speed and direction--as well as water temp and depth--you'll want to make sure those two transducers are on the boat's network. Or if you want to share GPS data with your VHF radio for DSC calling and distress broadcasting with your boat's MMSI data. In fact, many of the transducers simply have a NMEA 2K plug to connect to the displays you're talking about--a plug which won't be powered unless you first install a backbone.

And even if you aren't convinced yet, keep in mind the autopilot (unless you go with the CPT one) will absolutely need GPS data, wind data, water temp and current data, etc. to work properly by maintaining either a compass heading or angle off the wind.

It doesn't make much sense to go to all this trouble and not maximize functionality across devices, especially considering they possibly won't work properly. So, whatever devices you install, make sure you read the manufacturer's instructions first as they may vary.

Also, regarding daisy chaining and voltage drop: the best way to do this is to simply run 10-12 gauge wires to the 15 Amp switch/breaker at the panel. Anything else (like tapping into leads for equipment all around the cockpit) and you are asking for trouble and things not to work properly.

 

[nukey99]

The future radar if I get it, communicates via ethernet 100base T. B&G makes an adapter which connects their 8 pin proprietary cable to a standard RJ45. I know how to crimp RJ 45 cable ends on and have the tool to do so. My, "plan/hope" is to run a simple ethernet cable from the stern where the proprietary cable would come in, then join them together. We do have some form of Raymarine heading fluxgate compass which was put in when the st 4000 wheel pilot was added some years ago.

Our old boat in Florida, had a fully integrated system running NMEA 2000. It included 2 furnuno VX2 9 inch displays, a 48 inch open array radar, hydraulic linear ram autopilot, integrated depth and speed transducers, radar angle indicator. Very complex, and expensive, but you could program a course on your GPS and set the engines and the boat would drive there very accurately.

On the Ericson, all I'm looking for is a decent chart plotter and maybe a radar. We use the autopilot when setting or dowsing sails, most of the rest of the time we hand steer.

If I can't find an acceptable way to capture power at the companionway, I have 12 volt power at the helm which is on a dedicated switch. That was added at some point in the past when Lowrance chart plotter was added. That plotter has dated maps and is not operating well, which is why I'm switching to the B&G. As both brands are owned by Navico, there is a chance the power cable will even work.

 

[nukey99]

Here is a quick update on this thread/situation. I went back to the boat today, and read some of the manuals on the Ray Marine instrument cluster. The ray marine product have proprietary wiring and it will not be feasible to splice into them. At the helm there is a removable Standard Horizon GPS chart 3000i. It gets its twelve volt power via toggle switch which is down near the instrument cluster. This may very well be wired directly to the batteries, I haven't had a chance to try and chase it down. The good thing is, the power line was run through the deck with piece of hose, so it will be easy to run a new wire through. That will probably become the plan of action. Short wiring run, reasonably accessible, and the same approach can probably be used when/if I had a halo 20 radar.

This turned out to be considerably more complex than I'd anticipated.

 

[windblown]

I started replacing my instruments with a B&G MFD (Zeus3). The next year, I added an NMEA backbone and replaced my DST with B&G transducers and added Triton instruments. The Triton screens look great, but we cracked one, and B&G doesn’t offer a repair, only full replacement, and that’s when I started to think I wished I hadn’t chosen B&G. The NMEA backbone was fairly easy to install, and immediately, I saw less draw on the battery. The next year, I added the B&G wireless wind instrument. Installation was easy with NMEA, but pairing is a well-documented nightmare. When the battery died the next year, B&G was less than helpful, no one had the expensive replacement battery in stock, and the pairing nightmare replayed. The next year, a new Horizon VHF and Vesper AIS were added, along with a Fusion receiver/player. Installation was plugnplay, and everything talks to everything. Along the way, I spent hours considering my options for an autopilot, until I finally decided to go ahead with the Raymarine ev-100 wheel pilot because of a great sale. Once I found the connectors that allowed me to attach my raymarine to the NMEA backbone, it was easy to get it set up. I knew all along that I would not be able to use my MFD as a controller for the autopilot, and that’s still true, but I had no idea how much we would LOVE the AP. Why didn’t I do that years ago?!. Now my MFD is in it’s 8th season, and I’m still at least a year away from investing in Halo radar. I wish I hadn’t locked myself in to the pricier B&G brand. But I certainly don’t regret installing that NMEA.

 

[Christian Williams]

the wiring behind the panel is pretty difficult to work on

I simplified mine by adding a hinge to the panel face, consolidating the factory grounds, and just generally cleaning things up in there. One thing that does is to identify wires that are obsolete and label the rest of them.

E381 - Sailboat DC Electrical Panel Revision

See also "A Novice's Guide to Panel Reorganization," Parts 1 and 2 here. This project started with a sigh. The little I know about yacht distribution panels is more than I wish I knew, and a glance suggested hours of tedium ahead. The panel was...

ericsonyachts.org

E32-3 - Part 1--A Novice's Guide to Panel Reorganization

A yacht distribution panel that is a bad hair day from the 1980s is easy to ignore if the boat electronics sort of work. When I changed stereos last year I just crimped and crammed the new wires in. Then a few months later came a new GPS. Soon I...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[nukey99]

the wiring behind the panel is pretty difficult to work on

I simplified mine by adding a hinge to the panel face, consolidating the factory grounds, and just generally cleaning things up in there. One thing that does is to identify wires that are obsolete and label the rest of them.

E381 - Sailboat DC Electrical Panel Revision

See also "A Novice's Guide to Panel Reorganization," Parts 1 and 2 here. This project started with a sigh. The little I know about yacht distribution panels is more than I wish I knew, and a glance suggested hours of tedium ahead. The panel was...

ericsonyachts.org

E32-3 - Part 1--A Novice's Guide to Panel Reorganization

A yacht distribution panel that is a bad hair day from the 1980s is easy to ignore if the boat electronics sort of work. When I changed stereos last year I just crimped and crammed the new wires in. Then a few months later came a new GPS. Soon I...

ericsonyachts.org

Hey Christian - Thanks for the great information, I will review in detail. An interesting thing which I found is with the instruments at the cockpit port bulkhead. There we have ray marine, depth and speed, mast head wind instruments, autopilot controller. I took off the cover for that area in the salon of the boat, and found that they mast head instruments were wired to the autopilot controller, along with a rudder sensor indicator (which I have yet to locate). That tells me that I should be able to set the autopilot steer to a relative wind heading, which would be pretty cool.

 

[Christian Williams]

set the autopilot steer to a relative wind heading

I know this is a popular attribute, i just don't understand it for day sailing, when I always want the autopilot to take me in a straight line. Is the complication worth it? Apparently it is, probably for specific local conditions I don't appreciate. Maybe somebody will explain.

Meanwhile, here is the other end of the wires:

M25 Engine Wiring Upgrade--Part 1, Cockpit Gauges
M25 Engine Wiring Upgrade--Part 2, Alternator Jump and Bus Bar

 

[nukey99]

set the autopilot steer to a relative wind heading

I know this is a popular attribute, i just don't understand it for day sailing, when I always want the autopilot to take me in a straight line. Is the complication worth it? Apparently it is, probably for specific local conditions I don't appreciate. Maybe somebody will explain.

Meanwhile, here is the other end of the wires:

M25 Engine Wiring Upgrade--Part 1, Cockpit Gauges
M25 Engine Wiring Upgrade--Part 2, Alternator Jump and Bus Bar

We went out for a 4 hour day sail on Bellingham bay, and used the Autopilot a bit, we didn't try the sail to wind setting and didn't see a need for it. We only use it for short periods when hoisting or lowering sails. For long passage making, the battery consumption and wear on the tiny little helm pilot motor would be good. For that I would opt for one of the vane steering systems like Christian has on Thelonius.

I was impressed by the performance of the E35-3. In 12 KTS of wind, we had 20 degree heel and were doing around 5.8 through the water on a beam reach.

 

[Dave G.]

Which Raymarine instruments do you have ? I had my Garmin plotter at the helm and when I finally took the effort to wire in the instruments through NMEA 2k I really loved I could get all that info on it. You would be surprised at how much more info and calculations are available once it's all talking. Plus it's all right in front of you at your fingertips. I had Raymarine "I" series instruments which are already are NMEA 2k BUT they have proprietary connectors so you need adapters to plug into a NMEA backbone. I daisy chained the instruments and used one adapter to plug into the backbone. They recommend to run each one separately but I never had any issues with my configuration.

 

[peaman]

we didn't try the sail to wind setting and didn't see a need for it. We only use it for short periods when hoisting or lowering sails.

Couple years ago, I installed a new Raymarine wheel pilot, B&G Zeus chart plotter, and B&G wind instruments, all connected on a NMEA2000 backbone. I have tried to run the autopilot by apparent wind, but it hasn't worked out for me. It might work for a while, but then it would get "confused" and need some attention. I figure it has to do with conflicting response rates of autopilot and wind instrument. So I auto steer to compass heading for now.

 

[nukey99]

Which Raymarine instruments do you have ? I had my Garmin plotter at the helm and when I finally took the effort to wire in the instruments through NMEA 2k I really loved I could get all that info on it. You would be surprised at how much more info and calculations are available once it's all talking. Plus it's all right in front of you at your fingertips. I had Raymarine "I" series instruments which are already are NMEA 2k BUT they have proprietary connectors so you need adapters to plug into a NMEA backbone. I daisy chained the instruments and used one adapter to plug into the backbone. They recommend to run each one separately but I never had any issues with my configuration.

I believe our Raymarine stuff is ST50 era items. Some of it is integrated, via direct connections, but I haven't been able to find an NMEA backbone on the boat.

Due to delivery issues, I cancelled the order on the B&G, and purchased a Simrad GOX SE9 at local retail store for a very attractive price. I popped it in today pretty easily at an existing removable helm mount, which had a dedicated switched wires. The picture below is the unit as installed in our boat. The other Raymarine instruments are installed on the starboard cockpit bulkhead, all our operational and easily visible from the helm. The mount illustrated below is easily removable and can be stored in the cabin for security reasons.

The work to integrate it all is monumental task of tracing wires, building a backbone in ugly places etc. Our old Tiara 4000 express had everything integrated at twin Furuno MFD's at the helm, which was very cool, but that was a much more complex boat to manage.

This set up allows me to see where I am, how fast I am going over ground and thru the water, windspeed and direction, and how deep the water is. All from the helm across a couple screens.

Adding radar to this will be relatively easy, as we have a very find mount attached to the backstay which pivots. Power runs and radar cable runs will be pretty straightforward. The addition of radar adds the capability to see in the fog if I get caught in it.

When I'm finished up, I'll post a couple of more complete photo's of the solution, minus the Radar which I'm holding off on until I know it's really needed.

I very much appreciate all the terrific input and advice from such a great group of sailors.