After taking part in about 12 phrf events so far this year, ranging from low key "warm ups" to the Trans-Tahoe 2 weeks ago, I'm realizing that I need to bite the bullet and buy some new sails. What do you experienced folks recommend for a guy who is on a limited budget, but willing to spend more if the performance justifies it? What sailmakers offer the best bang for the buck? Would going to a full battened main make an appreciable difference? Because much of my sailing is daysailing or overnighting, I'm thinking of installing a roller up front - I know that's counterproductive to optimizing foresail shape, but the convenience would be worth a lot to me and I have crewed on boats that finished well with roller set ups. Some of the boats I race against have 'mylar masterpieces' while others seem to do fine with dacron. I hear people say if I buy something from one of the top of the line companies, much of my money is paying for their advertising, and that the smaller outfits offer comparable quality at much lower prices. What say you?
-
Untitled Document Join us on November 22nd, 7pm EDT
for the CBEC Virtual Meeting
Adventures & Follies
All EYO members and followers are welcome to join the fun and get to know the people you've met online!
See the link below for login credentials and join us!
(dismiss this notice by hitting 'X', upper right)
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
Bob,
You have asked some cogent questions.
All our budgets are limited, but if you are willing to "bite the bullet," as you say, then I would suggest that you deal with the name lofts in your area. One thing you need to do is get competitive quotes. All the measurements that will apply to your boat are already in a computer, so the hands-on measuring that used to mean a lot is probably an unnecessary step now.
I would think that if you put a roller up front--ProFurl seems to be the one these days--then you are dealing in personal choice. No one can help you make that decicion. Additionally, you seem to be well informed. On the down side, a roller limits the number of sails you can fly easily. I have jibs in a diverse range...storm, working, 155, 190 and an asymmetrical chute. They all mount in the same place and in the same way, which I consider a real convenience.
In addition, I have my jib sheets eye-spliced into a Tylaska shackle's bail, so when I change jibs I don't have to change sheets. We can tack my boat nearly as fast as an America's Cup boat. Nothing ever hangs up on the forward lowers. Even though I use hanked-on jibs, sail changes (when necessary) are pretty swift.
Personally, I use dacron. That's because it works for me. If it did not, then I suppose that I would move to another cloth. Dacron is nearly indestructible and lasts a long time. It won't give you the sail shape that Mylar, Kevlar and Spectra will, but I think it gives you the most bang for the buck.
To let you know that it isn't ALL about sails, I sail with a 12-year-old main, a three-year-old 155 gennie and a 30-year-old working jib. People who race around here have told the president of my PHRF organization that my boat (1973 E-27) is so fast that it could not POSSIBLY be legal.
About fully battened mains... My own, personal jury is out on that. I raced from Ft. Lauderdale to Key West a few years back on a Palmer-Johnson 77. They had a fully battened main. In light air, the top of the sail wouldn't come across in a tack. I thought it was a real pain. Maybe that was just a problem with that particular sail. I am not certain. But it can exist.
Going with a name loft as opposed as the smaller guys? I'd go with the "name." That's because they have to give you good service, and will. Their reputation demands it. Sometimes, it is the little extras that you get that make the real difference. And, honestly, having a good loft's logo on your sails tell others that you have the taste, experience and, yes, money to go where others without your great sense of discernment fear to go. Remember, sails are your engines. A Ferrari will get you where you want to go faster than a Yugo.
There, you got it all. But it's your money and your choice. Good luck.
Morgan Stinemetz
You have asked some cogent questions.
All our budgets are limited, but if you are willing to "bite the bullet," as you say, then I would suggest that you deal with the name lofts in your area. One thing you need to do is get competitive quotes. All the measurements that will apply to your boat are already in a computer, so the hands-on measuring that used to mean a lot is probably an unnecessary step now.
I would think that if you put a roller up front--ProFurl seems to be the one these days--then you are dealing in personal choice. No one can help you make that decicion. Additionally, you seem to be well informed. On the down side, a roller limits the number of sails you can fly easily. I have jibs in a diverse range...storm, working, 155, 190 and an asymmetrical chute. They all mount in the same place and in the same way, which I consider a real convenience.
In addition, I have my jib sheets eye-spliced into a Tylaska shackle's bail, so when I change jibs I don't have to change sheets. We can tack my boat nearly as fast as an America's Cup boat. Nothing ever hangs up on the forward lowers. Even though I use hanked-on jibs, sail changes (when necessary) are pretty swift.
Personally, I use dacron. That's because it works for me. If it did not, then I suppose that I would move to another cloth. Dacron is nearly indestructible and lasts a long time. It won't give you the sail shape that Mylar, Kevlar and Spectra will, but I think it gives you the most bang for the buck.
To let you know that it isn't ALL about sails, I sail with a 12-year-old main, a three-year-old 155 gennie and a 30-year-old working jib. People who race around here have told the president of my PHRF organization that my boat (1973 E-27) is so fast that it could not POSSIBLY be legal.
About fully battened mains... My own, personal jury is out on that. I raced from Ft. Lauderdale to Key West a few years back on a Palmer-Johnson 77. They had a fully battened main. In light air, the top of the sail wouldn't come across in a tack. I thought it was a real pain. Maybe that was just a problem with that particular sail. I am not certain. But it can exist.
Going with a name loft as opposed as the smaller guys? I'd go with the "name." That's because they have to give you good service, and will. Their reputation demands it. Sometimes, it is the little extras that you get that make the real difference. And, honestly, having a good loft's logo on your sails tell others that you have the taste, experience and, yes, money to go where others without your great sense of discernment fear to go. Remember, sails are your engines. A Ferrari will get you where you want to go faster than a Yugo.
There, you got it all. But it's your money and your choice. Good luck.
Morgan Stinemetz
Last edited:
Thanks, Morgan. I appreciated your racing tips earlier in the year and tried to implement a number of them, but still have a lot to learn. One factor that applies to my situation is that winds are relatively light most sailing days, so the 150 is the sail of choice for most of the gang here most days. Also, I singlehand a lot and at my sleepy little marina there is often no one else around to help fold a sail. Those guys that just roll 'em up sure seem to get their boats squared away a lot faster. Additionally, I'm wondering about going to a loose-footed main, as I crewed for a guy who used one (Mylar) and rolled it up rather than flaking it and it sure made for a nice package on the boom, with no wrinkles or folds. As usual, you pay to play. Still, it's fun right now to compete evenly against stuff that cost ten times what mine did and I wonder what difference it will make when I have some laundry up there that shapes out a little better.
Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
Bob,
Glad to help. Around here--western coast of Florid; "it may bore you, sure, but there are no stoned-out hippies mauling you"--the 155 is the sail of choice, unless the winds are just too strong. The rule of thumb is to carry the sail that you want to race downwind with. You can reef going upwind or feather the boat a bit to get rid of excess heel--assuming you have done all the other stuff--but you can't add additional sail down wind if you don't already have it up.
Our PHRF rule down here allows a 155, so if your rule up there does, too, then get the extra 5%.
Loose footed mains are the way to go. Should have mentioned that.
All those other things that you need for adjustments--outhaul, Cunningham, backstay adjustment, halyard tension, vang--figure into how fast your boat will go. The biggest mistake I see is that people are not willing to make the effort to change the jib sheet lead when sailing off the wind. Back in the days of yore, I could routinely beat an Irwin 37 with my boat because the guy with the Irwin never moved the jib lead and put all his crew in the back of the boat for broad reaches.
More than anything, if you put some money into getting the best "engines" you can afford, then you will sail faster and be happier. Don't forget to keep the bottom clean.
If roller furling is in the offing because you don't have anyone to help you fold a sail, let me suggest that it is a learnable skill to do it solo. It just takes twice as long. I fold mine after being out by myself. The ont time I don't fold it is when it's raining. I just put it down below and fold it later, when I can get it on the ground dry.
I believe the reason the guys who have the hi-tech sails roll them is because the threads break down if they are folded. That's why I like dacron.
Morgan
Glad to help. Around here--western coast of Florid; "it may bore you, sure, but there are no stoned-out hippies mauling you"--the 155 is the sail of choice, unless the winds are just too strong. The rule of thumb is to carry the sail that you want to race downwind with. You can reef going upwind or feather the boat a bit to get rid of excess heel--assuming you have done all the other stuff--but you can't add additional sail down wind if you don't already have it up.
Our PHRF rule down here allows a 155, so if your rule up there does, too, then get the extra 5%.
Loose footed mains are the way to go. Should have mentioned that.
All those other things that you need for adjustments--outhaul, Cunningham, backstay adjustment, halyard tension, vang--figure into how fast your boat will go. The biggest mistake I see is that people are not willing to make the effort to change the jib sheet lead when sailing off the wind. Back in the days of yore, I could routinely beat an Irwin 37 with my boat because the guy with the Irwin never moved the jib lead and put all his crew in the back of the boat for broad reaches.
More than anything, if you put some money into getting the best "engines" you can afford, then you will sail faster and be happier. Don't forget to keep the bottom clean.
If roller furling is in the offing because you don't have anyone to help you fold a sail, let me suggest that it is a learnable skill to do it solo. It just takes twice as long. I fold mine after being out by myself. The ont time I don't fold it is when it's raining. I just put it down below and fold it later, when I can get it on the ground dry.
I believe the reason the guys who have the hi-tech sails roll them is because the threads break down if they are folded. That's why I like dacron.
Morgan
Last edited:
Taking it a little further
I'm considering spending the extra bucks for tri-radial Dacron, possibly both main and genoa. What's the conventional wisdom of performance/durability of these vs. increased cost? Will they truly give me several more years of life than crosscuts? Total extra cost for both would be about $650 - amortized over, say 6 to 8 years, it looks to me like it might well be worth it, especially if they shape out better toward the end of that life.
I'm considering spending the extra bucks for tri-radial Dacron, possibly both main and genoa. What's the conventional wisdom of performance/durability of these vs. increased cost? Will they truly give me several more years of life than crosscuts? Total extra cost for both would be about $650 - amortized over, say 6 to 8 years, it looks to me like it might well be worth it, especially if they shape out better toward the end of that life.
Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
Bob,
I have a tri-radial dacron gennie. I don't know about life span, because it is about three years old. But it is very fast. The main, on the other hand, is 10 years old. We are still wining with the combination.
Morgan Stinemetz
I have a tri-radial dacron gennie. I don't know about life span, because it is about three years old. But it is very fast. The main, on the other hand, is 10 years old. We are still wining with the combination.
Morgan Stinemetz
I wish I had found you earlier, Seth, I'd have worn you out with questions. By the way, thanks for answering the ones I've sent you for the E23 newsletter. I went ahead in August and bought a genoa and a main from Mack Sails in Ft. Lauderdale. They shape out nicely and boatspeed is definitely up. Race results are better, too - finished 1.2 seconds out of first in the last race after making some bonehead moves downwind. The genoa has the old style mitre cut - what is your opinion of that set up? I went with full battens, and like that arrangement so far, but am not knowledgeable about setting batten tension for various conditions.