Newbie Seeking Help/Info on Buying a 1976 E23

[Marshall]

Hi, just joined this interesting and informative site and appreciate that newbies (like me) can hopefully find help here.

I've been looking to buy a sailboat, it'll be my first boat (aside from 16' catamarans).
Wanting to get something over 20 ft, allowing me to spend an occasional overnight or two or three aboard. Should sleep at least two adults comfortably. Something I can spend an enjoy a weekend on. Not just a coastline or bay cruiser, but a boat that can offer some performance, whether it be an occasional race or whatever, especially as my skills and experience increase. A boat I can sail by myself, whether I have guest(s) aboard or not.

I have found a 1976 Ericson 23. I plan on looking at it in person next weekend, here in So Calif. Until then, all I know about it is that it's in a slip, no trailer available and supposedly in relatively nice condition. I believe it has a fixed keel, but won't know for sure until I see it in person. Same for the condition of the fiberglass, interior, equipment, options, etc, etc.

Other than to say hello and introduce myself, I am requesting any help or guidance I can get from you all that obviously are more experienced at knowing what to look for and check.

My intention is to buy a sailboat that will not require a lot of work in order to sail and enjoy her. Once I buy a boat, I'd prefer not having to spend very much money on things initially, other than maintenance. If it's something required, not too expensive and once done, it won't need it again for a long time, that may be okay. But as close to a turn key condition as possible is what I'd love to get.

Actually, I'm not sure what normal maintenance is for an E23, aside from keeping the battery charged, lights and electronics working and hopefully finding someone at the marina where I'll keep her to occasionally clean the bottom.

I'd like to know what I need to look for. What crazing or cracks in the fiberglass are important or may prevent me from wanting to buy the boat. Same for anything else to look for.

The reason I'm considering this E23 it's already in a reasonably priced slip I can take over and the boat is priced at a good deal (provided it does not need much). Price for the E23 is about $1000. The owner will include a 6hp outboard for something like $400 - $500 extra and he says it's in great condition. (I don't know what's a good deal or not on this.)

The marina where this boat is kept is not local to me, so I'm making a trip to see it. I've never arranged for a boat survey, what kind of pricing is reasonable for one and how can I arrange it without me being local? (I assume the owner (who is local to the boat) won't mind letting someone aboard if I'm paying for the survey.)

But even without a survey, any help is appreciated. I would love to know what to look for on and around this boat, to help me decide if it's going to need expensive work or repairs or if its likely to become a project, before I can enjoy her.

Thanks to you all in advance!
Marshall

 

[rwthomas1]

Hello and welcome! I would recommend that you use the search function and read all you can about E23's. There are a few owners here on the board and they will have plenty of info for you.

Given the purchase price is so low a survey will cost a significant percentage of the asking price. A better solution may be to bring along a friend, maybe someone on this board would do it for you, that knows keelboats and have them give it a good looking over? Cheap boats can be a very good deal as sometimes the owner just wants out. Or they can be very expensive due to huge amounts of deferred maintenance. You won't know until you see it.

That said, small boats are pretty simple things. Provided the equipment is safe and serviceable the asking price, even with the outboard, is pretty reasonable.

RT

 

[sleather]

Marshall, I've had my 1979 E23 since '85 and I guess that says something.

The V berth is very comfortable , as is the port berth. The starboard berth is best suited to sitting(narrow). I've spent maaaany a weekend on it and there's plenty of room(if you're used to backpacking). IMHO it's got a VERY comfortable cockpit and the rap-around coaming helps deflect alot of spray.

I've raced forever on 28' one-designs and the E23 is no slouch if equipped right and has a decent sail inventory. I also tend to not be timid when it comes to conditions and mine has seen alot of ~50mph blows w/ no problems. There is one specific issue, and that's the port chainplate connection to the wood bulkhead below. If it leakes the bulkhead can rot. The starboard side is all fiberglass, so it's not an issue. If it's a fixed keel then the other problem, delamination of the centerboard, isn't an issue. All the 23's parts came out of the same "bin" as the 25 and 27, so she's a tad bit overbuilt.

There's another one for sale here, w/ pics and a good link to an article written about the E23.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=7413

http://www.sailingmagazine.net/comp...sed-boat-notebook/520-ericson-23?directory=79

As the original brochure states "the more you live with her, the more you'll appreciate her sublime use of 23'"

 

[Marshall]

Thanks, Rob. The price seems maybe too good, that's why I'm concerned that possible neglected maintenance or damage might have become more serious. I know I don't have the experience or knowledge to judge these things.

Would anyone here, with knowledge/experience on a mid-'70's E23, care to assist me in examining one I'm seriously considering to buy?

Date: Saturday, May 16th
Location: Nearby to San Diego Bay. (I'll get the exact marina info later this week.)
Time: To be arranged - mutually convenient

My budget is tight, especially considering I may be buying a boat, but I'm happy to reimburse reasonable time/travel expenses if necessary.

Please let me know here or through private email, then we'll talk before Saturday.

Thank you.
Marshall

 

[Marshall]

Hi Steve, thanks for your info.
I've viewed that ad and photos a day or two ago. Nice. But the E23 I found may potientally be a better buy, even without the same sail inventory. (Don't know exactly what sails or other equip is on the boat - won't know until I see it, I guess.)

Here;s a 1969 E23 with auction ending in an hour: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250418302550

Not sure how I'll know if there has been leaking or rotting wood inside the fiberglass.
Worse case scenario, is the remedy or fix expensive? (I have no experience at fiberglass work.)

Om a 33 year old sailboat, I can imagine that many things may go bad and since I don't know the history or maintenance history of this boat, that's why I'd appreciate help looking it over.

Thanks!
Marshall

 

[sleather]

Hi Steve, thanks for your info.
I've viewed that ad and photos a day or two ago. Nice. But the E23 I found may potientally be a better buy, even without the same sail inventory. (Don't know exactly what sails or other equip is on the boat - won't know until I see it, I guess.)

Here;s a 1969 E23 with auction ending in an hour: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250418302550

Not sure how I'll know if there has been leaking or rotting wood inside the fiberglass.
Worse case scenario, is the remedy or fix expensive? (I have no experience at fiberglass work.)

Om a 33 year old sailboat, I can imagine that many things may go bad and since I don't know the history or maintenance history of this boat, that's why I'd appreciate help looking it over.

Thanks!
Marshall

That ebay boat is a MKI, earlier model, it's explained in that article I posted before.

------WOW it sold for $710 :eek: and the brochure shown in the add is for the MKII(notice the rudder)


The port bulkhead problem is not encased in fiberglass and should be visible, and detectible w/ a penknife. On mine, I had added a backing plate, opposite the chainplate, as the bolts were starting to compress the plywood, the problem was the backing plate was hiding the rot from the leak above. Almost lost the mast in 2001 and I ended up repairing it w/ some new ply and SS plates each side of the bulkhead. You can see the joint that shows how much wood had to be replaced. Alot easier than replacing the whole bulkhead.

 

[sleather]

Camera

Marshall, One suggestion....when you check her out, take a digital camera and photograph anything you see that's suspicious and post them here for a "remote review" by our highly trained and impartial staff of Ericson affectionados. Hope someone steps up to the plate before next weekend.

Unfortunately our list of "People and Projects"(top of page)/ Owner/Boat Registry area isn't back up and running yet to connect with others in your, or the boats, area.

 

[Marshall]

Thanks, Steve.
Today, I sent you a private note here.

 

[Marshall]

A few E23 MkII questions that I hope E23 owners can answer for me.

Do all MKII's have the traveler track across the cockpit or across the cabin's roof?
Since I believe the E23 was marketed or described as a Racer/Cruiser, I'm wondering if they all came with the track, or did some come with a fixed mounting point for the outhaul (I think it's called?)?

For a '76 E23, where should the Hull Number be found? During that period of time, shouldn't there be a standard location where all E23's will have their Hull Number?

For E23's and other, similiar sailboats, without an inboard engine, how are the boat's batteries kept charged, without relying only on dock power or solar or wind power generation for charging?

Is there a reasonable price range for a used, running, 6hp outboard engine? I know there are variables involved, but since I don't have any details on it, I thought there might be some sort of price range I can use so that I can feel I'm not paying too much.

Thanks!
Marshall

 

[John Cyr]

Marshal, In order,

Not sure about the traveler track on a 23 (my 25 is on the cabin top as are most)

A mk 11 should have the hull number on the outside of the transom, port side i think.

Only options for battery charging is Dock (a small auto charger with a high amp marine plug adapter) solar, wind, or . . . some small outboards have alternators which while they prob wont recharge a dead battery but they will power running and cabin lights to keep from killing the house battery when under way. (the most popular which comes to mind here was the evinrude 9.9 saildrive which had the alternator and optional electric start, in the long shaft version they are getting hard to find, mine was stolen. I had to replace it with a 14 which is really too big for my 25)

500 is a fair price for a 6hp (IF IT FITS THE BOAT ie long shaft which I think your gonna need) and is in good shape. its prob not gonna have an alternator tho (if it does, buy it wether you buy the boat or not

Construction issues were well discussed above, the bulkhead/chainplate issue is critical but not insurmountable (and common, if it hasent been done yet, it will need to be) If it has a centerboard, you can pretty much count on replacing it, (if it wasnt already) the originals are all losing their integrity and allowing water into the core and swelling/corroding from the inside out. This is a pretty big repair job (I rebuilt my 25 in 89 and steeling myself to replace it completely again this season.

Now here is your critical issue. the bottom. Most all fiberglass boats of this era were subject to osmotic blistering and Ericsons are no different.
If this is NOT a trailersailer (ie always in the water which i think you said it is) than the hull condition/bottom paint status is key Good news is that the solid layup hull is relatively thick and there is plenty there if it must be ground down and recoated. This is also (as you might expect), a big job
and many casual recreational sailors dont even do it. If the bottom paint is good, cleaning it once a month is good in the summer in socal. Now obviously if competition is in order (racing) then its a different story. the only way small ericsons will sail to their rating is if the bottom is slick and the sails are good. New sails are a significant cost factor and a 23 is just big enough to get you into some serious bucks quik.

I could go on forever, but If you could set it up tomorrow (wed) I could help you (you did say the boat is in SD) I know way short notice but I fly back to my regular job thurs AM and wont be back for a week.
PM me.
John

 

[sleather]

A few E23 MkII questions that I hope E23 owners can answer for me.

Do all MKII's have the traveler track across the cockpit or across the cabin's roof?
Since I believe the E23 was marketed or described as a Racer/Cruiser, I'm wondering if they all came with the track, or did some come with a fixed mounting point for the outhaul (I think it's called?)?

The standard location for the mainsheet is on the cockpit floor. The "link"above shows the typical upgrade w/ a full track across the cockpit. I modified mine to only span the foot well and I find the amount of "travel" quite adequate, and it frees up the seats for lounging. See pictures below, the orange dot on the floor is where the standard attachment goes and the others are the old location.

The downloadable color brochure "does" show a cabin top mainsheet arangement, but I've never seen or heard of it.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/local_links.php?catid=79

For a '76 E23, where should the Hull Number be found? During that period of time, shouldn't there be a standard location where all E23's will have their Hull Number?

After 1972 all hull numbers(HIN) are on the starboard side of the transom just below the rub rail. There are probably duplications on the backside of any woodwork below.

For E23's and other, similar sailboats, without an inboard engine, how are the boat's batteries kept charged, without relying only on dock power or solar or wind power generation for charging?

My Honda 8 has a charging circuit, but as John pointed out it's more of a maintainer.

Is there a reasonable price range for a used, running, 6hp outboard engine? I know there are variables involved, but since I don't have any details on it, I thought there might be some sort of price range I can use so that I can feel I'm not paying too much.

I agree, $500 sounds about right IF it's in reasonable condition. Check out NADA once you have the specifics.
http://www.nadaguides.com/default.a...50636&l=1&w=24&p=38&f=5693&gc=mr&gtc=ob&any=0

 

[Marshall]

John, Thanks for the info and offer. Just sent you a private message. Wed is okay with me, but I need to see if the owner is available.
Would like to exchange numbers.

 

[fredn56]

Bulkhead repair

Steve,

Could you describe in a bit more detail (you can rely offlist to me if you like to fredn56@gmail.com) the port bulkhead repair you completed. I am scratching my head over fitting a new bulkhead into the cabin adn your repair looks like an answer.
I just added teak handrails to the deck and love the way she looks. A traveler from Garhauer is next week's project. How did you attach the wood underneath the traveler track to the cockpit locker sides? I don't want to screw into endgrain.

Fred Nelson
Ericson 23 #344
Ad Astra

 

[sleather]

Steve,

Could you describe in a bit more detail (you can rely offlist to me if you like to fredn56@gmail.com) the port bulkhead repair you completed. I am scratching my head over fitting a new bulkhead into the cabin adn your repair looks like an answer.
I just added teak handrails to the deck and love the way she looks. A traveler from Garhauer is next week's project. How did you attach the wood underneath the traveler track to the cockpit locker sides? I don't want to screw into endgrain.

Fred, When are you tackling the bulkhead? I took some print pics when I was doing the work and not sure I can find them right quick. I can e-mail you a better file of the finished product.

Description below of the traveler, from your old thread After prethreading the lag holes(in the endgrain) I treated the holes well w/ West epoxy.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=6188&highlight=e23+traveler

 

[fredn56]

Bulkhead repair

Thanks, Steve, for the info on the traveler.

Not starting on the bulkhead for about a month. I am guessing it will be necessary (and much safer) to haul her out and drop the mast.

Hoping to get some pictures this weekend.

Fred Nelson
Ericson 23 #344
Ad Astra

 

[Marshall]

Hi Steve, thanks for the info.
Here, I'll reply to each of the comments you made, since I went and looked over the E23 yesterday (Wed), with an experienced E25 owner that was very generous with his time and knowledge. (Thanks again, John!)

This E23 has the standard link on the cockpit floor. If I got this boat, I'd leave that as it is, at least for awhile.

Yep, the hull number is where you said. I confirmed it's a 1976 production number.

No alternator on the outboards (see next paragraph).
Boat has two batteries and a charger wired and mounted next to them in the starboard cockpit storage area, under the bench seat.
Boat has a dockside electrical hookup plug, mounted on starboard outer side of cabin, just forward of the cockpit area. Also, boat includes the heavy dockside power cord with the special plugs (didn't check the length).
I suppose I could mount a solar panel on the deck somewhere to help keep a charge on the batteries, but not sure how to mount them, without doing a permanent mount, so that someone can't easily come by and take it. (good panels are not cheap.)

The boat comes with what appears to be an older Yamaha 3hp, 2 stroke. The 6hp engine I mentioned is a Yamaha 2 stroke. I cross referenced the model number of the 6hp on a couple sites and it's a 1991 model. Owner says the 3hp needs a tune up. I was not able to attempt to start it. The 6hp was mounted on the transom outboard mount, so I lowered it and it started easily on one pull with some choke applied.
Nada site says high value, if I recall, is around $184. I spoke to the owner about it and he's treating the 6hp as a separate item for sale, at $500. Says this engine recently was rebuilt, therefore he feels the engine is easily worth what he's asking. (I have not yet agreed with him.)

Comments? Feedback? Suggestions? All are welcome.
Thanks!
Marshall

The standard location for the mainsheet is on the cockpit floor. The "link"above shows the typical upgrade w/ a full track across the cockpit. I modified mine to only span the foot well and I find the amount of "travel" quite adequate, and it frees up the seats for lounging. See pictures below, the orange dot on the floor is where the standard attachment goes and the others are the old location.

The downloadable color brochure "does" show a cabin top mainsheet arangement, but I've never seen or heard of it.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/local_links.php?catid=79




After 1972 all hull numbers(HIN) are on the starboard side of the transom just below the rub rail. There are probably duplications on the backside of any woodwork below.



My Honda 8 has a charging circuit, but as John pointed out it's more of a maintainer.



I agree, $500 sounds about right IF it's in reasonable condition. Check out NADA once you have the specifics.
http://www.nadaguides.com/default.a...50636&l=1&w=24&p=38&f=5693&gc=mr&gtc=ob&any=0

 

[fredn56]

Charging batteries and such

Hi Marshall,

I have one deep cycle battery that is connected to a Sunsei SE-500 panel (you can find it at West Marine for about $100) and a small Guest charger.
I leave the charger plugged in when she is in the slip. The previous owner used the solar panel only for charging and was satisfied with that, but we like to listed to the radio a lot. This setup seems to work fine for us.

I have sailed with the mainsheet attached to the ring in the cockpit floor for a year now, no problems. Adding a traveler because I have learned more about how to sail and would like to get a bit more out of her.

Does the owner have any documentation on the 6hp engine rebuild he can show you? I bought a new Tohatsu 8hp 4 stroke and am very happy with it, but $1600 vs. $500?

Will the owner let you take her out for a quick spin?

I replaced all the turnbuckles, as most of them were looking pretty beat up. Also rebedded all lifeline stanchions and the bow pulpit. Now at the place where I want to work on the port bulkhead and chainplate, mostly for a feeling of security. One small soft spot in the deck about 2 ft square.

Had her hauled and bottom scraped and painted last summer, and lots of growth but no blistering. Not bad for a 33 year old.

Anyway, maybe my experinces can trigger something for you to consider. Wish you success. I can tell you our E23 is at a marine surrounded by Hunters, Catalinas, and O'Days, but we get compliments on her every weekend. We regularly sail past 25-28 footers.

Cheers,

Fred Nelson
Ericson 23 #344
Ad Astra

 

[Marshall]

Hi Fred!
I appreciate your feedback.

I just posted a new thread here. Since I saw the boat Wednesday, instead of this coming weekend, I was able to post many observations and ask for others to offer their opinions.

Dockside power is fine, but if you're using the battery power while away from the dock and you might be away for 2 or 3 days, I'd like to have a way to put at least some charge back.
I wonder if those small, marine, wind generators are expensive and generate much power. (They'd work day and night, which solar can't do.)
But I'm concerned about things being stolen from the boat, while docked and unattended. Heard of others having this problem...

I think the 3hp engine is too small, especially if against a current or other conditions.
I thought about asking for documentation on rebuild after I left. Thought I'd wait on asking and asking to take the boat out on short cruise. if the knowledgable opinions I receive in my other post are positive for this deal, as I described it there.
Of course, I'd try to get a better deal, but he's sounding that he's firm on both. (see the other post for info) http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=7483

In time, as budget allows and as my skill improves, I may want to make changes/additions.

Thanks
Marshall

Hi Marshall,

I have one deep cycle battery that is connected to a Sunsei SE-500 panel (you can find it at West Marine for about $100) and a small Guest charger.
I leave the charger plugged in when she is in the slip. The previous owner used the solar panel only for charging and was satisfied with that, but we like to listed to the radio a lot. This setup seems to work fine for us.

I have sailed with the mainsheet attached to the ring in the cockpit floor for a year now, no problems. Adding a traveler because I have learned more about how to sail and would like to get a bit more out of her.

Does the owner have any documentation on the 6hp engine rebuild he can show you? I bought a new Tohatsu 8hp 4 stroke and am very happy with it, but $1600 vs. $500?

Will the owner let you take her out for a quick spin?

I replaced all the turnbuckles, as most of them were looking pretty beat up. Also rebedded all lifeline stanchions and the bow pulpit. Now at the place where I want to work on the port bulkhead and chainplate, mostly for a feeling of security. One small soft spot in the deck about 2 ft square.

Had her hauled and bottom scraped and painted last summer, and lots of growth but no blistering. Not bad for a 33 year old.

Anyway, maybe my experinces can trigger something for you to consider. Wish you success. I can tell you our E23 is at a marine surrounded by Hunters, Catalinas, and O'Days, but we get compliments on her every weekend. We regularly sail past 25-28 footers.

Cheers,

Fred Nelson
Ericson 23 #344
Ad Astra

 

[Loren Beach]

On the question about engine size....
At a brochure displacement of a little over 3K, this is a lot more of a "small yacht" than similar-size small sailboats from other less expensive builders of the era. (And, in this present day era, there is almost nothing quite like it even being built at all.)

IMO, a well-reputed engine like the small Yamaha would be adequate for smooth water. For general all-around use I would want 5 hp, like one of the current Honda's, for instance. An 8 hp might be overkill, and heavy on the stern, but if you found a good deal on one....
(Mk 2 E-23, right?)

Also, Fred's comments about speed are germane. A good friend of mine bought a new E-23 mk2 in the 70's and still talks about how it sailed over and past many other boats up to 30'. He and his wife cruised on that boat for years.

Regards,
LB

 

[Sven]

An 8 hp might be overkill, and heavy on the stern, but if you found a good deal on one....
(Mk 2 E-23, right?)

I agree with Loren after many happy cruises on La Petite. I was actually wishing we'd had something smaller than the 4-stroke Mercury 6 hp long shaft. When you need more power to power against wind and waves you can't really use the outboard anyway because the wave action will most likely make you cavitate too much.

It would have been nice to have had a few watts of alternator output from the outboard but we never ran down the batteries even when out for a week so it is not a gotta-have by any means.

Great and beautiful design !


-Sven