Pirate Hostages
- Thread starter sleepingsquirrel
- Start date
What about the "rights" of the DEAD VICTIMS???
I have lived in a several big cities in the United States which contained neighborhoods where I wouldn't walk at night. Cruising and Sailing is about taking responsibility for your decisions and actions. If someone decided to deliberately sail into the path of a hurricane most of us would call that plain stupid.
Everyone has a right to make a choice, but if your choice puts you into the path of possible danger, you should not expect others (governments or individuals) to get you out of the situation or bring retribution on what caused you harm.
I have lived in a several big cities in the United States which contained neighborhoods where I wouldn't walk at night. Cruising and Sailing is about taking responsibility for your decisions and actions. If someone decided to deliberately sail into the path of a hurricane most of us would call that plain stupid.
Everyone has a right to make a choice, but if your choice puts you into the path of possible danger, you should not expect others (governments or individuals) to get you out of the situation or bring retribution on what caused you harm.
Akavishon
Member III
not nice
This discussion is far away from Ericson/boating topics, and dangerously close to political waters, which - as other forums have experienced - is not healthy for the community. I happen to disagree with much of the "let's kill 'em all" sentiment expressed here ... it is always much easier to "respond" with brutal force, rather than understand the complex socio-economic background of modern piracy (or crime, or drugs, or you name it).
Brute force is also not the solution (to piracy, or crime, or drugs, or you name it): In a world with vast economic differences and a population deprived of other options, piracy (as crime) is guaranteed.
Lastly, I certainly would not want my government to "Capture, Torture, mutilate, leave to suffer for a few days and then kill". I hope we are better than that.
Zoran
This discussion is far away from Ericson/boating topics, and dangerously close to political waters, which - as other forums have experienced - is not healthy for the community. I happen to disagree with much of the "let's kill 'em all" sentiment expressed here ... it is always much easier to "respond" with brutal force, rather than understand the complex socio-economic background of modern piracy (or crime, or drugs, or you name it).
Brute force is also not the solution (to piracy, or crime, or drugs, or you name it): In a world with vast economic differences and a population deprived of other options, piracy (as crime) is guaranteed.
Lastly, I certainly would not want my government to "Capture, Torture, mutilate, leave to suffer for a few days and then kill". I hope we are better than that.
Zoran
CaptDan
Member III
This discussion is far away from Ericson/boating topics, and dangerously close to political waters, which - as other forums have experienced - is not healthy for the community.
Arguably (no pun intended
), this subject might better belong in the 'Raftup' section where rants and opinions are encouraged. Still, I wouldn't be too concerned with this forum's interactive health going down the flame highway like so many web-lists have. The members of this group have traditionally displayed a great deal of restraint and respect, resulting in a very high chatter-to-information ratio - strongly favoring the latter.
That said, I'm tempted to counter your points with a few of my own, but I don't think I can muster words better than those already written.
Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
Arguably (no pun intended
), this subject might better belong in the 'Raftup' section where rants and opinions are encouraged. Still, I wouldn't be too concerned with this forum's interactive health going down the flame highway like so many web-lists have. The members of this group have traditionally displayed a great deal of restraint and respect, resulting in a very high chatter-to-information ratio - strongly favoring the latter.That said, I'm tempted to counter your points with a few of my own, but I don't think I can muster words better than those already written.
Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
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I've got to say that it's been interesting watching this thread progress, and I think it speaks highly of the community, as does the concern of the immediate applicability to the topic (or forum) at hand. There is no doubt that sailors tend to be a self-reliant lot with a rather firm view of how things should be, but "be" takes on various forms. So, keep it civil and open and we all benefit.
The problem with simply saying these sailors were "irresponsible" and writing them off is that piracy can happen anywhere, anytime. Yes, there are certainly areas of the World where it is far, far more prevalent, but saying "they just shouldn't have been there" is about the same as claiming a rape victim shouldn't have worn a short skirt.
AFAIK, international waters are just that, international. Pirates plucking boats, cargo and people from international waters anywhere in the World is a problem for ALL of us. If you keep rewarding their actions with payoffs, ransoms, etc. where does it end?
Its not just the "wealthy" cruisers, its about international trade, its about the several hundred professional sailors still being held hostage. While some would like to try and figure out the complex socio economic background and how to fix it the reality is that vessels and people are threatened DAILY. Simply blowing them out of the water every time they try attacking a vessel ends the problem right there and then. Work on why Somalia is a stinking heap later. You cannot play by rules when the other team doesn't acknowledge the rules. Its not about being "better than that" its about right and wrong.
RT
AFAIK, international waters are just that, international. Pirates plucking boats, cargo and people from international waters anywhere in the World is a problem for ALL of us. If you keep rewarding their actions with payoffs, ransoms, etc. where does it end?
Its not just the "wealthy" cruisers, its about international trade, its about the several hundred professional sailors still being held hostage. While some would like to try and figure out the complex socio economic background and how to fix it the reality is that vessels and people are threatened DAILY. Simply blowing them out of the water every time they try attacking a vessel ends the problem right there and then. Work on why Somalia is a stinking heap later. You cannot play by rules when the other team doesn't acknowledge the rules. Its not about being "better than that" its about right and wrong.
RT
This topic incenses me like few others. Any mariner that gets highjacked, kidnapped, murdered, etc. could be one of US! Any one of us could actually make it out cruising someday and end up with this happening. I think if you ended up in that predicament you would damned sure hope that someone would "take care of them". The oceans of the world are one of the last truly free places on earth. They are used by the citizens of the world freely as long as you can navigate, know the rules of the road, its up to you where you go. Idiots like this spoil it and should pay the ultimate price for doing so, post haste. They give no quarter and should be given none.
RT
RT
Dan Morehouse
Member III
We cruisers are late arrivals to this party. Resisting piracy was always a matter of commercial importance back in the day, so it's interesting that more visceral outrage is generated when yachties get murdered these days than when cargo ship crews are similarly ill treated.
But think of how common a denominator sailors are to the level of advancement in a given place. In general, the more yachtsmen in a given place, the safer and saner that place is. How many third world ratholes have big yachting communities? In how many "worker's paradises" will you find marinas full of sailboats? Sailors and sailboats are like the thermometer of civilization, and piracy against yachts is like crime against children. IMHO, no other adult endeavor so neatly illustrates all that's great about life, both because of the way it confounds those whose life mission is to control others, and because it strikes a romantic chord in the minds of even the lubberliest of land dwellers. I doubt any image on earth conveys the simple idea of freedom so deftly and so universally as the image of a sailing vessel, anchored or under way. And maybe that explains the universal horror at the spectacle of pirates killing yachtsmen.
Governments may or may not respond to such outrages on the high seas. And a yachtsman expecting deliverance from government is probably as silly as government expecting meek conformance from yachtsmen. But don't send armed ships and men just to strike a threatening pose. A government which does this and little else is producing exactly the same effect as if they had done nothing at all...except at a vastly higher cost. And don't confuse understanding socio-economic circumstances with actually addressing the problem. A government intent upon navel gazing at pirates half a world away in order to "understand" why they are killing its citizens is also producing exactly the same effect as if they had done nothing at all...except, again, at a vastly higher cost.
We cruisers can still pursue a lifestyle embodying the best freedom has to offer without going places where we're clearly at a disadvantage as targets. There are more great places to see in the civilized world and the great wildernesses out there than any of us has time for anyway. Leave pirate infested waters to the pirates and to ships big enough to mount an effective defense against them. Eventually, civilized governments will have to drop their highbrow nonsense and take out the garbage, or concede defeat & abandon shipping lanes to thugs.
Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"
But think of how common a denominator sailors are to the level of advancement in a given place. In general, the more yachtsmen in a given place, the safer and saner that place is. How many third world ratholes have big yachting communities? In how many "worker's paradises" will you find marinas full of sailboats? Sailors and sailboats are like the thermometer of civilization, and piracy against yachts is like crime against children. IMHO, no other adult endeavor so neatly illustrates all that's great about life, both because of the way it confounds those whose life mission is to control others, and because it strikes a romantic chord in the minds of even the lubberliest of land dwellers. I doubt any image on earth conveys the simple idea of freedom so deftly and so universally as the image of a sailing vessel, anchored or under way. And maybe that explains the universal horror at the spectacle of pirates killing yachtsmen.
Governments may or may not respond to such outrages on the high seas. And a yachtsman expecting deliverance from government is probably as silly as government expecting meek conformance from yachtsmen. But don't send armed ships and men just to strike a threatening pose. A government which does this and little else is producing exactly the same effect as if they had done nothing at all...except at a vastly higher cost. And don't confuse understanding socio-economic circumstances with actually addressing the problem. A government intent upon navel gazing at pirates half a world away in order to "understand" why they are killing its citizens is also producing exactly the same effect as if they had done nothing at all...except, again, at a vastly higher cost.
We cruisers can still pursue a lifestyle embodying the best freedom has to offer without going places where we're clearly at a disadvantage as targets. There are more great places to see in the civilized world and the great wildernesses out there than any of us has time for anyway. Leave pirate infested waters to the pirates and to ships big enough to mount an effective defense against them. Eventually, civilized governments will have to drop their highbrow nonsense and take out the garbage, or concede defeat & abandon shipping lanes to thugs.
Dan Morehouse
1981 E-38 "Next Exit"
Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
Well said, Dan.
toddbrsd
Ex-Viking, Now Native American
Update
Just when I thought this story had been forgotten:
http://www.ocregister.com/news/shibin-116569-ocprint-pirate-pirates.html
Just when I thought this story had been forgotten:
http://www.ocregister.com/news/shibin-116569-ocprint-pirate-pirates.html