Removing Rudder Quadrant from Rudder Post

[jkenan]

All bolts holding the two halves of my rudder quadrant together are hopelessly seized, including the single bolt going through the quadrant and rudder post. In fact, the head of that bolt is about to shear off because I was able to get to wrench to turn the head, but am certain the shank was still frozen! I'm also certain the quadrant has not been disassembled since the boat was built, and the quadrant being aluminum and the bolt being stainless, corrosion of the two is, again, a certainty. Now that it is hauled, I want to inspect the rudder post, bushing, and attend to some fiberglass work on the rudder since it is showing some surface fractures in the laminate. Access into the quadrant housing is inconvenient at best, and I'm pretty stumped at the moment.

Any ideas on how to extract the bolts, or what the best method would be to separate the two quadrant halves so I could take it to a shop for any bolt extraction and thread retapping?

Given the corrosion, and likely shear of the primary bolt holding the quadrant, I don't really want to just leave it. I also don't what to start cutting in less than ideal space because I may damage beyond repair the quadrant, the rudder post (and therefore the whole rudder), or both!

Thanks in advance.

 

[Guy Stevens]

Heat! And Corrosion Block TM

Start heating it, and then spraying it with corrosion block. A propane tourch should be enough heat.

The Corrosion block TM works well because it does this foaming stuff which lowers the surface tension, so it gets in between the parts better.

Oh and try not to light your hair on fire......

Guy

 

[newgringo]

John,
I truly sympathize with your dilemma. I have looked at what is probably a similar setup on our E32 and wondered what I will do when it is time to do the same. Having worked on corroded marine stuff since the mid 1960s sometimes the most direct, cheapest and fastest thing to do is just saw it apart and replace with new parts. And stainless does indeed lock up pretty tight in aluminum. So if those 3 stainless bolts don't come out pretty easy you might price a new quadrant and get out your sawzall. Cheery huh? Let us know how it all works out.

 

[rwthomas1]

I like a penetrating oil called Kroil or AeroKroil. It can be hard to find however it works WAY better than anything else I have tried and I've tried plenty! CorrosionX is another good one that can be found at WM, etc. Soak the parts down and do the heat thing as suggested by Guy. Don't go too nuts though and cook any surrounding fiberglass. Keep an extinguisher handy. If the bolt shears off then if you have the room it may be simply knocked out with a punch and hammer. Heavy ball peen hammer and sturdy drift with good solid hits should move it. Good luck, RT

 

[exoduse35]

If you must cut it out...

If you have access to air then use a die grinder with a cut off wheel any tool supplier will set you up. the cut off wheel is only 3" when new so will be much easier to get into te tight space. if you slice Though the seem when the bolts slice out the quadrant will separate. then take the parts to a MACHINE SHOP with a mill. they will be able to mill out the stainless and re thread it pretty cheap. if you try to drill it the bit will walk and destroy the aluminum and if you are successfully in getting a hole and try an easy out and brake it off you are screwed as they are as hardened as the mill cutters so cant easily be removed. just take your time and slice cleanly, you can dress the mating faces once it is apart and add a shim to replace the 1/16' the grinder wheel takes. oh the sparks from grinding are hot and will start a fire if you work too fast around anything burnable but it is much less hazardous than a torch

 

[GrooveSupply]

I've had good luck with "Yield" penetrating lubricant. Also, a soft hammer of lead or brass makes a good persuader. But the galvanic corrosion is tough. My 38 has a bronze quadrant that came off without a hitch.

 

[jkenan]

Thanks for all the suggestions. The corrossion is pretty bad, and I think my best bet will be to cut the bolts between the two pieces of the quadrant. Before doing that however, I will take a heat gun (not a torch), and heat up the four bolts holding the quadrant together nice and hot, and then apply some penetrating oil. If that doesn't work within an afternoon, I'm taking the die grinder to it.

If I end up having to replace the quadrant, The Edson 676BR8 bronze quadrant is about $450. I don't think leaving it as-is would be prudent given the state of the corrosion, and current inability to inspect or appropriately repair anything rudder-related. Hearing some stories of rudders deep-sixing gives me the willies, especially since I'm taking her out 20nm or so...

Makes you want to remove the rudder with every haul-out just to prove you can. Does anyone know of another quadrant manufacturer, or perhaps a salvage yard where I could find one?

Will keep you updated. Thanks again!

 

[skipper007]

Electric or Air grinder

The beginning of this thread, as it turns out (unfortunately) is most timely for my situation. I had a survey yesterday of a 1974 E32-2 and it needs a complete steering repair job, including of course getting the rudder off. I too will try heat gun/penetrating, but know I'll be cutting something sometime.....

WHAT is the right grinder? Is air better than plug-in 110Vac. The newer Makitas have BIG batterires, but are very expensive and need charging. Any recommendations here? Will a typical diamond edged cutting blade made for concrete work on stainless bolts? What is the recommended tool setup?

Thanks again to the wonderful folks of this site.
Skip

 

[Guy Stevens]

Air abrasive disk, or electric abrasive disk

Both work well, watch where the stuff you cut off goes as it is hot too!

Concrete blades won't work so good.

Guy

 

[sleather]

Right tool in the "wrong" place!

WHAT is the right grinder? Is air better than plug-in 110Vac. The newer Makitas have BIG batterires, but are very expensive and need charging. Any recommendations here? Will a typical diamond edged cutting blade made for concrete work on stainless bolts? What is the recommended tool set-up?

Skip, I've got a 4 1/2" Sears Industrial Disk Grinder(110V- relatively small ~12") that I think would be prefect for the job.
I bought it mostly for the job of cutting-off old bolts(car related). Just get the right wheel and go slowly(multiple short passes) as S.S. gets harder when heated! That's also the trick on "drilling" S.S., slow and plenty of "cutting-fluid". Too bad we're all so far away as mine needs some exercise!

 

[skipper007]

Bought the Ryobi 4.5" angled grinder this morning with lots of metal spare cut off wheels. A cheap product, but it only has to cut like 10 stainless bolts. The pain (from getting back in the hole) starts bright and early saturday. I'll let you all know what worked and what didn't.
Skip

 

[Martin King]

Thanks for all the suggestions. The corrossion is pretty bad, and I think my best bet will be to cut the bolts between the two pieces of the quadrant. Before doing that however, I will take a heat gun (not a torch), and heat up the four bolts holding the quadrant together nice and hot, and then apply some penetrating oil. If that doesn't work within an afternoon, I'm taking the die grinder to it.

I wouldn't waste time crawling in there with a torch and penetrating oil.
That's a good way to burn something and or start a fire. A heat gun won't do anything either.Get a die
grinder with a 3" cut off wheel and take off the bolts. If it were my boat,
I'd throw that cast aluminum quadrant in the dumpster and go get a
bronze one. Yes, it's pricey but it is the steering system after all. The
one thing on the boat that you want to be able to rely on. If you lose
the steering, your done for.

Martin...climbing down off the soapbox

 

[sleather]

Another Use!

Bought the Ryobi 4.5" angled grinder this morning with lots of metal spare cut off wheels. A cheap product, but it only has to cut like 10 stainless bolts.

Skip, Good choice! That grinder might come in handy for "prep" work on the glass surrounding your "rudder post"(other post). A "concrete" wheel would probably best for that task.

Good Luck in the "nether-world"! I'm redoing all my thru-hulls, cockpit drains and elecrical in the spring(w/ a possible "shaft" addition, so I understand your pain! I'm glad I'm a small guy!

 

[jkenan]

Get a die
grinder with a 3" cut off wheel and take off the bolts. If it were my boat,
I'd throw that cast aluminum quadrant in the dumpster and go get a
bronze one.

Yeah, I'm coming around to your school of thought on this....

Would you get an angle die-grinder or a straight one? You guys are familiar with the limited access to to the Quadrant space in the E-29. I would like to not mutilate the Aluminum Quadrant in the process of getting it off, so having the right angle of attack is important. What do you think?

Thanks.

 

[Martin King]

Would you get an angle die-grinder or a straight one? You guys are familiar with the limited access to to the Quadrant space in the E-29. I would like to not mutilate the Aluminum

I don't think it'll make much difference in this case. I've got a cheap
angle grinder air tool that I use for stuff like this. As far as not marring
your quadrant taking off the bolts, well...you would be a lucky man
indeed! Since Murphys law pretty much kicks my ass every time I
attempt stuff like this, I would have a new part standing by.


Martin

 

[Martin King]

Would you get an angle die-grinder or a straight one? You guys are familiar with the limited access to to the Quadrant space in the E-29. I would like to not mutilate the Aluminum

I don't think it'll make much difference in this case. I've got a cheap
angle die grinder air tool that I use for stuff like this. As far as not marring
your quadrant taking off the bolts, well...you would be a lucky man
indeed! Since Murphys law pretty much kicks my ass every time I
attempt stuff like this, I would have a new part standing by.


Martin

 

[exoduse35]

MY Recomendation

You want a die grinder, they look like a dremel tool on steroids. it will have a 1/4" chuck into which you will insert an arbor, it looks like a small rod with a couple of washers and a nut on one end. between the washers insert a 3 " metal cutting wheel. these come in different thicknesses. the cleanest cut will come from a 1/16 thick wheel, but you must have a steady hand as after the cut begins any flex to the cut off wheel will disintegrate it instantly! a 1/8 thick one is much more forgiving but less clean and removes a lot more material. you might get a few of both and try your skill with the finer one first. the wheels are available at welding supply stores the die grinders are available at any good tool retailer and at a variety of cost. the pneumatic ones are best if you have an air source, but electric Will work too. I've even used an electric drill in a pinch, but the faster you turn the wheels the better they cut (to about 22,000 rpm) good luck, Edd

 

[Rocinante33]

Do you have a straight shot access to the heads of the screws? If so, center punch, then drill into the center of the bolt head. Use a small drill bit, then progressively larger until you pop the head off the bolt. It is less trauma to the quadrant. You may have to turn the wheel to get that straight access.

 

[skipper007]

Bronze quadrant

Fortunately I had the Bronze quadrant, but I did need the cut off wheel to get the YS 411 Sheave box down from the cockpit sole though.

 

[jkenan]

Job is done!! I had to make an executive decision b/c I had to go down to the boat anyway yesterday to winterize her given the hard-freeze in the forecast. I opted for the 90-degree die-grinder, which was fortunately the right tool giving the confined space. The yard also lent me a straight die-grinder, which was not able to gain any reasonable attack on bolts (and no, there is no way to center-punch the bolts and drill them out on the E-29. And Martin, you were right, I had to mutilate it. As you correctly stated, it is dumpster bound, and rightly so. The amount of corrosion, although visibly not extreme, made the aluminum very brittle. After cutting at it for a while, and then taking a chisel and banging at the seam with NOT too much force, the thing just broke up in chunks. Better here at the yard than out at sea! I'll be going with the Edson 8" Bronze quadrant.

As for the rudder, the post is showing more scarring at the rudder-tube exit than I would like, and, there is a lot of rust coming from the the top of the rudder where the post exits. Also, there are several areas of rust showing through the fiberglass about 1/4-1/3 way down the rudder, which is what prompted me to take it off in the first place. May be talking with Foss about this. Any input would be welcomed.

Scary the things you find when you look at things that haven't seen the light of day for 30 years.

Thanks for all the feedback. Will keep the board posted