Rust on keel bolt washers

[ofshore74]

Are the washers sacrificial under keel bolts? Was told the E34 I'm eyeing does have rust on the washers but not the bolts (awaiting hi-res photos). There is also mention previously in the forum that Ericson left some sort of wax on the hull keel joint before attaching the keels in the mid to late 80s, this allowed seepage of water and eventual corrosion of the bolts/threads hidden between if the keel were ever compromised by a grounding. I imagine 30+ years of a sealed keel sitting in seawater might get the better of engineering. Anyway curious if others have experienced this and if it's a deal breaker in terms of being on the hard more than sailing.

 

[Christian Williams]

The washers are stainless, and not sacrificial.

I'd be surprised not to see a little rust, after all those years in low oxygen environment. You can attack with a stainless wire brush for a better look .

Keel bolts are usually forgotten and ignored, covered in dirt, often painted, and living in sea water. They are very robust and oversized to allow for corrosion.

No keel has ever fallen off any Ericson as far as we know.

I'd direct the surveyor's attention and get his up-close thinking.

[The preceding can be interpreted as Internet CYA Code for "nah, doan worry aboud it."]

 

[Slick470]

Ericson did put some sort of red material over the top of the keel bolt washers and on top of the nuts on our boat. Might have been wax, seemed harder than that so maybe a red tinged epoxy or other resin. It wasn't a complete encasement, but where it was applied and remained after 25 years the washers were in ok shape.

Where this coating failed, the washers were looking a bit rusty in spots. So, this along with a small crack at the hull to keel joint, when doing our bottom job a few years back, I had the yard remove the nuts and washers, look everything over and put in new nuts and washers and properly torque everything back up. The keel bolts (for as much as they could see from the top) looked just fine and the nuts had almost no corrosion, only the washers seemed to be just starting to corrode where they didn't have the coating anymore.

All that said, the condition at the top of the keel bolts doesn't tell you what is going on at the hull to keel joint. If there is water at that interface, the bolt could look brand new in the bilge and be almost nothing 2 inches down. The only real way to tell is to drop the keel and look. The yard we used, didn't recommend dropping our keel as the bolts took full torque, and the general opinion is that production racer/cruisers such as ours are somewhat over designed/built. If they had recommended dropping the keel to us, we would have, just for the piece of mind.

Tell tale signs of a potential or future problems are weeping at the hull to keel joint. If that weeping is rusty, then there is corrosion going on somewhere in there.

 

[ofshore74]

The washers are stainless, and not sacrificial.

I'd be surprised not to see a little rust, after all those years in low oxygen environment. You can attack with a stainless wire brush for a better look .

Keel bolts are usually forgotten and ignored, covered in dirt, often painted, and living in sea water. They are very robust and oversized to allow for corrosion.

No keel has ever fallen off any Ericson as far as we know.

I'd direct the surveyor's attention and get his up-close thinking.

[The preceding can be interpreted as Internet CYA Code for "nah, doan worry aboud it."]

Can't help but get into the details which is why I love boats so much [monkey off back] thanks for the input!

 

[ofshore74]

Great info, thanks Andy.

 

[Joliba]

We are among the Ericson owners who dropped and re-bedded the keel due to the construction error 20 years earlier. We first detected the problem when we saw rusty bilge water running out of the crack between the hull and keel when the boat was on the hard shortly after we purchased her. We found that the keelbolts and nuts were completely intact and rust free with intact threads. The washers, however, were totally rusted away and disintegrated. Though they may not intentionally have been sacrificial, there is no doubt that the washers' stainless steel is different from the steel of the keelbolts and of a different nobility. Indeed, they were effectively and thankfully sacrificial, protecting the keel bolts and nuts completely...despite long exposure to saltwater.

 

[Christian Williams]

I wonder why nobody recommends a sacrificial material in the bilge. Maybe it wouldn't work, given the need for stainless to form its own barrier.

I made a mess using paint remover to unpaint the keel bolts and washers on the new boat, then grinding away with sandpaper and wire brushes.

Not a metallurgist, but as I understand it paint is bad--bolts need oxygen to stay healthy. Dunno about other coatings.

 

[Frank Langer]

I heard a surveyor recommend placing a zinc on one of the keel bolts so I decided to try it. I don't get much water in the bilge, but after a year there is no sign of corrosion on the zinc. I've kept it there as a precaution and as a spare in case I lose a zinc off the prop shaft but I'm guessing that a zinc in the bilge serves no real purpose.
Frank

 

[ofshore74]

Hard to tell what's going on until I see it in person next week but here's a higher res photo I got sent, could probably use a cleaning, unsure about those crack-like marks could be dirt, could be the grounding owner had experienced. In which case I'm guessing the washer will be buried in the fiberglass a bit:

 

[Frank Langer]

Those cracks could also be from tightening the bolts after the grounding if someone tightened them a bit hard.
Frank

 

[ofshore74]

Those cracks could also be from tightening the bolts after the grounding if someone tightened them a bit hard.
Frank

True, it's all a mystery though until I get in there with a toothbrush next week.

 

[Christian Williams]

Just to balance things out, let me add that Loren rebedded his keel, and doesn't take the cavalier attitude I do about these things.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3448-Keel-Bolt-Design-(and-Repair)http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3448-Keel-Bolt-Design-(and-Repair)

 

[markvone]

That rusty keel bolt washer looks just mine when I bought my boat. The boat had been sitting with an inop. bilge pump for a few years unused after the PO died. It never has had any seawater leaks so my bilge only fills when it rains. I cleaned the bolts and washers up with a green 3M scotch brite pad and they stay pretty rust free now. If it rains I get ~1 inch of fresh water sitting in the bilge below the float switch until I suck it out with a turkey baster. This surface rust is not what kills keel bolts. it's crevice corrosion which only occurs in the absence of oxygen, down below the washers along the threads. If you have a seawater leak via the hull-keel joint that shows up as seawater in the bilge or bilge water leaking out when you are hauled, then crevice corrosion is a concern.

Mark

 

[ofshore74]

Just to balance things out, let me add that Loren rebedded his keel, and doesn't take the cavalier attitude I do about these things.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3448-Keel-Bolt-Design-(and-Repair)http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3448-Keel-Bolt-Design-(and-Repair)

Talk about putting the fear of god in an Ericson shopper! lol So Loren believes re-bed the keel every 20 years. I also got from it that you never really know what your bolts look like unless you drop your keel. Sussing out the water situation by taste first to see where it's coming from, would might be another check....

I'd better find an amazing surveyor if I go the mile on this. Thanks for pointing out the thread.

 

[supersailor]

Loren is a conservative and incredibly competent sailor. The "rule of thumb" is not necessary if the boat has not suffered a hard grounding. Mine did a hard grounding last year with the consensus that nothing needed to be done. The wife did enrich the Duncan Emergency Room). These Ericsons are incredibly tough (no Catalina smiles!).

 

[ofshore74]

Thanks I can appreciate that. It's great having experts who go the extra mile and weigh in, Ericson owners know their boats!

 

[Loren Beach]

What's in a number?

Talk about putting the fear of god in an Ericson shopper! lol So Loren believes re-bed the keel every 20 years. I also got from it that you never really know what your bolts look like unless you drop your keel. Sussing out the water situation by taste first to see where it's coming from, would might be another check....
I'd better find an amazing surveyor if I go the mile on this. Thanks for pointing out the thread.

One thing about my conservative take on this: I could just as easily say to do this every 25 or 30 years.
Only point is that IF.... you have a leak around a keel bolt or have any moisture seeping out of the keel-to-hull interface when on the hard, just have it re-bedded.
When I did it the cost was no worse than the new standing rig, approx. 1500 to 2000 dollars, as I vaguely remember it.

Given that several 80's Ericson's and Olson's have needed new sealant and prep work on that keel mating area, it seems like a prudent thing to do.

Contrast that to boats too numerous to mention that really do need their entire wimpy hull-to-deck joints re-engineered... something we EY owners will never (!) have to worry about.

Cheers,
Loren

 

[Christian Williams]

Hmmmmmmmmm....

 

[ofshore74]

"Hmmm, looks like an 89' Ericson to me, Mick!" LOL that's dark.

Hmmmmmmmmm....

 

[ofshore74]

I get completely get it, piece of mind.

One thing about my conservative take on this: I could just as easily say to do this every 25 or 30 years.
Only point is that IF.... you have a leak around a keel bolt or have any moisture seeping out of the keel-to-hull interface when on the hard, just have it re-bedded.
When I did it the cost was no worse than the new standing rig, approx. 1500 to 2000 dollars, as I vaguely remember it.

Given that several 80's Ericson's and Olson's have needed new sealant and prep work on that keel mating area, it seems like a prudent thing to do.

Contrast that to boats too numerous to mention that really do need their entire wimpy hull-to-deck joints re-engineered... something we EY owners will never (!) have to worry about.

Cheers,
Loren