We're gonna need a bigger boat

[bolbmw]

After a few weeks of cruising this summer I've come to realization that we're gonna need a bigger boat. The 30+ is a bit too small with three of us onboard, and the cockpit gets very crowded with 5! I'd love to stay in the Ericson family but it doesn't really seem like the bigger E boats offer much more in space, or separate cabins for small children. We have a 15 month old and right now the 30+ is an excellent boat for converting the V-Berth into a crib area; a baby gate perfectly closes off that area to keep him safe and to get a good nights sleep. Unfortunately that also means closing the cabin door, which limits access to the head at night. The salon table must be dropped to convert to a double for me, and my wife sleeps in the aft quarter berth. A bigger boat, with two cabins would solve this problem without the salon being a disaster zone & storage area. It's extra difficult with all the extras you bring with a baby on board!

The ideal would be an aft queen centerline berth with aft head, and a v-berth for the kiddo, alas Ericson didn't make such a thing. The only boat I am familiar with which does is a Catalina 380 (and would be over budget.) Tartan 3400/3600's have an good layout too, are also big bucks. I have NOT been onboard a 38-200, but is probably the closest Ericson to what I'm looking for. Definitely willing to sacrifice salon space for cabin space. Gear can be updated/changed/removed, but layout is forever ...

Looking for any advice or models to look at, in the sub $60K USD (75K CAD) range with
- queen berth or large double(s)
- aft head
- vberth which can be closed as a cabin without limiting access to the head (if its the only head)
- cockpit comfortable for 5-6, bias towards single handing at the helm
- still has the sailing performance an Ericson owner loves

It feels like a tall order. You've got the RV's of the Sea (Catalina, Hunter) and higher end newer boats. The racer/cruiser inspired boats of the 80s sacrificed a lot in the cruiser department.

 

[Christian Williams]

The E38 was just not a "big boat." It's the price paid the low topsides and sheer line. See what you think of the -200. But it gives up space in the V-berth.

I hate to say it, but when I had little kids I used to charter a [Catalina 38], and I tell you it was perfect for the job. Huge, comparatively.

I have a movie of a kid-cruise in it somewhere....I'll pm you the link, too embarrassing for public.

 

[Loren Beach]

If you set up parameters of a maximum XX amount of dollars, and next a minimum number of berths and sizing, and next a hull shape optimized for sailing efficiency....
and then factor in basic build and engineering quality...
Oh My.

Basically, without undue abuse of the deceased horse, you will find that an middle-aged low quality vessel with a wide stern and high freeboard will be at one end of the imaginary graph, and boats like the Ericson, Tartan, C&C(some, but not all), Sabre, Yamaha, Cascade, and some etc, are more toward the other end. Money is a way to sort the list, although it does not eliminate choices of all the good ones or really denigrate all the bad ones.

In this case, the present day market of "second homes pretending to be sail boats" kind of helps you.

You will find low quality "floating RV's" selling for more $, sometimes, than high quality boats.

There are a ton of buyers interested in roomy dockside living that care little about sailing. This newer market also blindly accepts that their weak hull-to-deck joints, inefficient fat iron keels, and gear spec'd out for a decade of use at the max is.... "normal".

They also, for the most part have never sailed a "good" boat, and have been brain-washed by an army of magazine article authors and venal brokers to believe, almost like a little religion, that boats that sail well are only meant for "racers".
Without any experience at all, they absorb the lie that only "racers" buy boats that are fast and really fun to sail.
Cruisers are, in their minds, elevated to a separate and superior class -- because they are not "racers", perhaps.

The whole thing is just weird to observe. I know a top notch surveyor and an experienced broker. They are both quite circumspect about the descriptive language used around owners and prospective owners to describe production sailboats. And they speak and write carefully because they have found that most customers will react poorly to actual education.

Back to the door we came in through, I have done an overnight delivery on an E-38-200. I found plenty of room to stretch out in either end of the boat, and I am 6'2".
It was fast, under power and also under sail - an 8 knot boat by either means. It's not a "big" 38 footer, but at a decent 12 feet of beam also still does not have an exaggerated beam-length ratio. The motion in big seas is very "soft" compared to most current fat and square-er designs.

You did not reference freeboard directly, but I also did a delivery on a late model Catalina 350, and had great (unexpected) difficulty climbing aboard from a dock. It is not practical without a set of steps to deploy, all the time. :0

Let us know what you decide.

Cheers,
Loren

 

[bolbmw]

Definitely a large set of trade offs indeed. C&C 38's and 40's are interesting with their narrow pilot berths above the port and starboard settee, and the C&C 37/40+ is high up there in the compromise of performance and cruising capability but I am wary of balsa cored hulls, and are hard to find. Next time I'm down in California I should stay a few extra days to see some of the boats, as there are way more available down there to view, 38-200's included.

Freeboard is a good concern to bring up. We chartered a crewed Catalina 400 Mk II once but only used the walk thru transom. Having to jump several feet down on a side tie is not ideal but we favor mooring or anchoring where possible.

At 6'1" the 30+ is definitely at the lower limit of size! As a cruising couple it's great, but not so much as a family boat. The good thing is we already have the boat, so now we have the benefit of taking time to find the 'next one.'

 

[Loren Beach]

We avoided balsa cored hulls when we were shopping, having friends that had spend huge $$$ to re-core part of the bottom of a J-30. And we know other J Boat owners with similar projects.

Too bad you could not check out that Olson 34 that just changed hands here in PDX. It sold fast.

For actual berth measurements for most of the Ericsons and Olsons, check out the thread here with that information.
"The tape don't lie" as the saying goes.

Loren

 

[Inceptor]

E38-200 may be the ticket

Well, been lurking here for a while but think this may be a good time for a first post. About a year ago we started seriously looking for a 35'- 40' boat and had similar parameters to yours. Our short-list of absolutes included:

- Boat had to be visually pleasing. Life is too short to sail ugly boats
- Boat had to be reasonably fast
- Quality of construction and durability also required
- Comfortable aft area berth for a couple, both tall
- V-berth forward in a cabin of some sort
- Access to the head from either berthing space without intruding on the other
- Cockpit room for at least 5 day-sailing, preferably 6 if possible
- Set up for a couple to easily sail, meaning single-handed at times
- Did I mention that the boat had to look good?

We looked at lots of boats. Everything from Catalina's to Morgans, Westport 39's to Beneteau Firsts, Older Cal's and C&C's, Jenneaus, Islanders, older Petersons, Hunters etc. All offered something, none offered it all. Most were definitely unacceptable or self-disqualifying for one reason or another (ugly, slow, poor construction, miserable berths etc). We have friends with Ericson 35's and 38's, which meet most all of the critical criteria, but the aft quarter berths just would not work for us. But we were drawn to the Ericsons for reasons undoubtedly apparent to anyone who frequents this forum.

Then we looked at an acquaintances Pacific Seacraft 38-200. Looks, check. Performance, check. Construction and durability, check. Berths and head, check. Cockpit, short-handed layout all checked. Did I mention that it looked like a sailboat should? Price? Gulp. Over budget. But......a slightly older Ericson 38-200 would fit nicely into our budget with room left for upgrades and improvements. We found our boat a hundred or so miles north in King's Harbor.

With one season of use, here is my take considering your described needs: the aft berth/cabin is small, but comfortable. The berth isn't exactly square or queen-sized, but has worked nicely for us (she is just shy of 6' and I am a couple of inches taller). We did upgrade the mattress. It has a bi-fold door that works fine, giving a bit of privacy (is there such a thing as privacy on a 38' boat?). The front V-berth works for an average sized couple, is deluxe for a single adult, and would be palatial for a toddler. It too has a door and "privacy". It would be simple to rig up a kiddie-gate if needed. The aft head really works, and is accessible from either cabin or the cockpit without disturbing those in the other cabin. The head is easily accessed from the cockpit, and acceptable in size, even for 6-footers.

And the boat sails as good as it looks. We don't race, but it sure is pleasing to be able to pace or pass most of the other boats when out for the day. And having sailed it a bit, we aren't concerned about coastal passages or weather surprises. The boat is just stout and sea-kindly.

Hope this helps. Maybe you can stick with a Viking boat after all.

Mark

 

[Christian Williams]

I believe that it is the steroidal growth of topsides that has blown out boats such that one step below reveals an RV.

Just note the companionway ladder length on this [Catalina 380] vs. an E38 of a few years before. And you can see the owner's cabin behind Tracy, with a John-Wayne height door.

To see how they sail, however, look at the outside of the boat....

 

[bolbmw]

That's some great feedback Mark. It sounds like you really did your homework and our list is nearly identical. I definitely have to find a 38-200 to take a look at by the sounds of things. I'd love to be able to find a boat that should the mood strike, I can safely refit and do some extended cruising in safety and performance. I'm not sure the RV's are up to that and I know I would not be happy with a full keel traditional boat for local cruising.

Have you found yourself wanting 'more' with the aft cabin considering how it narrows at the foot? I have a sneaking suspicion I would end up sleeping on a settee again!

I'm almost 99% certain that's a Catalina 380 and not a Hunter in that picture. I can definitely see what you're talking about, and explains the massive freeboard.

 

[Christian Williams]

Correction made. Thanks--CW

 

[Bolo]

Cat boat

As with anything in this world its impossible to find the "perfect" anything. I'm a professional photographer and there has been this discussion going on around me with my local peers about buying the "perfect" camera which is impossible. When someone asks me for my advice on what kind of camera to buy I always ask back,"What are you going to do with it? What kind of photos do you want to take?" It's similar with boats too I think . If you want a bigger boat but need to keep within a budget (like most of us) then compromises need to be made. I heard once that the older "classic plastics", like our Ericsons were designed from the outside in and that todays newer boats (Catalina, Hunters, etc.) are designed from the inside out. In other words our boats were first designed for sailing and then for creature comfort IMO. I know I'm preaching to the choir here but it's an important point to consider. Compromises are always needed.

One other boat design that has always intrigued me, not because of it's speed or how high it can point, has been a cat boat. Some think they're ugly but I think they have a beauty all their own and they have lots of room too. So maybe consider a cat boat if you want to take a crowd for a sail. You may not go as fast as the other but they look to be comfortable and easy to handle. And beautiful too depending on the eye of the beholder.

BTW: I've also considered the Catalina 38s too because of the room. Never sailed one but been on penalty at boat shows. But our E32 is a great boat on the bay and since it's just my wife and I it would take a lot to get me to switch. Good luck on your search.

 

[Inceptor]

Aft berth foot-room

Have you found yourself wanting 'more' with the aft cabin considering how it narrows at the foot? I have a sneaking suspicion I would end up sleeping on a settee again!

The aft berth in the 38-200 does narrow in a bit, but is still pretty wide all the way aft. At first I found this to be annoying, but then I realized that if I just lie down following the contour of the hull instead of the centerline of the berth I don't notice the narrowing much if at all. Definitely don't wake up feeling cramped. The foot-area of the berth is also height-limited aft somewhat (it underlies the cockpit sole towards the stern), but I am a side-sleeper and tend to roll around while sleeping and don't find the height to be a problem.

Have I found myself wanting 'more' from the aft cabin? Yes and no. A square queen berth with full stand-up, or at least sit-up head-room and a real dressing seat would be nice to have. And then again no, considering our budget and list of critical function, performance and aesthetics parameters. We were willing to accept the limitations of the 38-200 berth to get the performance, construction and proper sailboat appearance along with the other interior design elements on our list. I think it is all about your priorities.

That said, I think we all need to be honest with ourselves when setting up our list of priorities. In our case we tried to prioritize things that we felt we either couldn't do without or things that we knew would grate on us and make us wish we had a different boat. We also tried to keep the list concise and realistic, targeting how we will actually use the boat in the immediate future, along with a realistic appraisal of our budget.

 

[frick]

A Boat with BIG Basement

If you want a boat with a large Cabin space... A Large (a 45 Deck Saloon) Hunter is hard to beat.

An Older Aft Cabin Endeavor might fit the bill....

Rick+

 

[toddster]

There has been a largish older boat around on and off Craigslist for a few years that has a large forward bunk converted to a crib/playpen. Something like a Nordic 44 maybe? I think it was a Perry design. Seattle area.