WTB E38 whisker pole
- Thread starter Vtonian
- Start date
A used spinnaker pole makes sense.
Adjustable poles are better, but quite expensive. They also famously bend and break.
Depends on needs. To fully wing out a big genoa on a 38 DDW means a pole as much as 19 feet long. In light air it makes a big difference, and helps the self-steering keep on track.
An adjustable pole is useful because a fixed pole doesn't allow the area of the genoa to be radically changed, as conditions can require offshore. That is, a long pole has to be able to be shortened as the square footage of the sail is reduced, and the value of a Forespar Line-Control adjustable pole is that you can set full DDW sails in the morning, then reduce the headsail during the day as the wind builds, shortening the pole as needed without removing it from the mast.
It is wisely said that when an adjustable pole is needed, go to to at least the recommended diameter, despite the expense. Whisker poles have to cover a huge range of conditions, and are never as strong as a spinnaker pole, which is designed for heavy compression.
Unless racing in national competition, I say avoid carbon fiber. Aluminum is the ticket.
Or, if we have an asymmetrical spinnaker, do we need a whisker pole at all? Shallow downwind tacking may be more comfortable than the rolling and gear requirements of DDW, and more or less as fast.
Adjustable poles are better, but quite expensive. They also famously bend and break.
Depends on needs. To fully wing out a big genoa on a 38 DDW means a pole as much as 19 feet long. In light air it makes a big difference, and helps the self-steering keep on track.
An adjustable pole is useful because a fixed pole doesn't allow the area of the genoa to be radically changed, as conditions can require offshore. That is, a long pole has to be able to be shortened as the square footage of the sail is reduced, and the value of a Forespar Line-Control adjustable pole is that you can set full DDW sails in the morning, then reduce the headsail during the day as the wind builds, shortening the pole as needed without removing it from the mast.
It is wisely said that when an adjustable pole is needed, go to to at least the recommended diameter, despite the expense. Whisker poles have to cover a huge range of conditions, and are never as strong as a spinnaker pole, which is designed for heavy compression.
Unless racing in national competition, I say avoid carbon fiber. Aluminum is the ticket.
Or, if we have an asymmetrical spinnaker, do we need a whisker pole at all? Shallow downwind tacking may be more comfortable than the rolling and gear requirements of DDW, and more or less as fast.
Vtonian
E38 - Vashon
@Doug C., good tip, so far I've happened across far more ads for used spinnaker poles.
@Christian W., thanks much for the analysis and size recommendation, I had not yet found any recommendations for a fixed length.
I think for my purposes of cruising inland waterways and variable winds, I would get by well enough with a fixed length, considering I'll probably almost never sail in any one direction for more than maybe 10 miles, so the only 'need' is for the pure joy of the rare instances when all the stars and hazards align for a brief DDW run. I like racing but on someone else's boat, it's too rich for my blood. Also, I don't feel like I'll be able to experience the full sashay waltz of an E38 DDW everyone talks about unless I have some kind of pole out.
@Christian W., thanks much for the analysis and size recommendation, I had not yet found any recommendations for a fixed length.
I think for my purposes of cruising inland waterways and variable winds, I would get by well enough with a fixed length, considering I'll probably almost never sail in any one direction for more than maybe 10 miles, so the only 'need' is for the pure joy of the rare instances when all the stars and hazards align for a brief DDW run. I like racing but on someone else's boat, it's too rich for my blood. Also, I don't feel like I'll be able to experience the full sashay waltz of an E38 DDW everyone talks about unless I have some kind of pole out.
Pete the Cat
Member III
Make sure whatever you get is something you can pick up and manipulate yourself. I used to have an expandable pole on my Tartan 37 that was so freakin heavy I would nearly fall overboard trying to set it. I bought a fixed carbon fiber pole that was less than half the weight I have been quite happy with. My Ericson came with a light fixed aluminum pole (with frozen ends I had to replace at cost of $200) that seems good too. Neither pole is full J length by a foot and I don't think that makes much difference. I am not sure I would go with an expanding pole again because of the added weight. I am able to fly a chute alone in light air and a fixed pole is a simpler set up to wing the jib out. Just an opinion based on working with different options.
Vtonian
E38 - Vashon
Thanks, Pete. By your approximation then, an E38 with a 16.25' J length might get by with as little as a 15'-ish length pole. Not saying I'll target that but if I run across one at a yard sale price, maybe don't pass it up, just to gain the experience of playing around with it.
A friend had a wooden one on his classic Kettenburg 43 and nobody died, although he said it was not light.
Pete the Cat
Member III
Unless I was racing (and I am not sure if that would be a real issue even then) I would probably stay within a foot or so of J--but the shorter pole makes a dip pole gybe a bit easier when I am single handing. Long pole doesn't seem to matter as much with a chute as it does with winging out the jib. One factor is that I sail with only a 125% in Maine and a 95% in SF because of the winds in those places. But I think for most folks a shorter pole should be a consideration. They sell poles with boats with the longest legal poles figuring--maybe correctly--that folks who race would want that and it does not cost much more to do it. I just find that tad shorter makes things easier. I raced on a classic wooden boat where the wooden pole shattered and I was frightened by the sharp ends. Better to have a bent pole.
Shorter is certainly easier, esp. if not planning long DDW legs.
One consideration: A pole length of "J" rests against the forestay when horizontal. You could go maybe a foot shorter and it still would.
If a rigged pole can rest against the forestay (most spinnaker poles don't) it stabilizes everything up there while sorting line or clearing fouls.
One consideration: A pole length of "J" rests against the forestay when horizontal. You could go maybe a foot shorter and it still would.
If a rigged pole can rest against the forestay (most spinnaker poles don't) it stabilizes everything up there while sorting line or clearing fouls.
Pete the Cat
Member III
My short poles can rest against the forestay when they are hoisted in place with the topping lift. J is measured at the base of the triangle--so the pole is long enough to rest against the headstay when it is hoisted. It just makes it easier to dip pole gype rather than doing an end for end gype. I had to add a couple feet of track on the mast as my Kenyon spar came with just a tiny strip and the pole could not go high enough for any real chute. Not sure what the Ericson riggers were thinking.
BTW--I found when single handing it is really convenient to roll in the jib and put the pole on the genoa clew while it is against the headstay foil, then bring the sheet back to open the poled out rig. It's the way I gybe single handed. Probably most single handers do this and it may be obvious--but the short pole helps here too because you don't have to fiddle reaching out too far to put the sheet in the jaws.
Yes, I was wrong to imply that spinnaker poles when hoisted don't extend to the forestay.
I would like to add that, when choosing a pole, the clew height of the genoa is worth considering. It looks good to have the pole horizontal ( not sure it really matters). If only one genoa, a fixed mount (cheaper than a mast track) is fine, since the pole remains horizontal no matter how much of it is deployed.
Height of pole mount above the deck also affects how short a whisker pole can be and still rest against the forestay.
I'm pretty familiar with DDW of the E38 specifically, since Hawaii outbound means a couple of weeks of it. In that particular environment a very long adjustable pole is great to have, since it allows putting a big genny square to the breeze, or even forward of square. My pole could extend to theoretical 22 feet, and I often used it at 19'. Even on the 32-3 I used its button-adjust pole at near max length. It seems ridiculously long, when manhandling, but allowed full deploy.
But "J" length works fine most of the time. 14', shown here, is far too short for full deployment of a 120 genoa.
E32-3 pole, adjustable aluminum, often needed longer than "J."
...
I would like to add that, when choosing a pole, the clew height of the genoa is worth considering. It looks good to have the pole horizontal ( not sure it really matters). If only one genoa, a fixed mount (cheaper than a mast track) is fine, since the pole remains horizontal no matter how much of it is deployed.
Height of pole mount above the deck also affects how short a whisker pole can be and still rest against the forestay.
I'm pretty familiar with DDW of the E38 specifically, since Hawaii outbound means a couple of weeks of it. In that particular environment a very long adjustable pole is great to have, since it allows putting a big genny square to the breeze, or even forward of square. My pole could extend to theoretical 22 feet, and I often used it at 19'. Even on the 32-3 I used its button-adjust pole at near max length. It seems ridiculously long, when manhandling, but allowed full deploy.
But "J" length works fine most of the time. 14', shown here, is far too short for full deployment of a 120 genoa.
E32-3 pole, adjustable aluminum, often needed longer than "J."
...
Vtonian
E38 - Vashon
Hi folks. I was able to purchase a used spinnaker pole but it has a socket on one end. It looks like changing my mast fittings to accommodate those would be expensive (only paid $200 for the pole).
Ray (or anyone), you'd mentioned replacing ends for $200, were those like the Forespar UXP series composite ends?
www.westmarine.com
Last question, that end is shown on an aluminum pole and mine is apparently carbon. I'd assume the pole ID is probably a little smaller for an aluminum pole and my ends already fit a little loosely, should they be shimmed to fit snugly? I see Forespar makes adapting collars, although I haven't found any info or availability on them. In other arenas, loose fitment can generate non-engineered point loads that can break things, and y'all have already pointed out that the poles can break. Should I be concerned?
Thanks much.
Ray (or anyone), you'd mentioned replacing ends for $200, were those like the Forespar UXP series composite ends?
Ultra Series Spinnaker Pole Ends | West Marine
Check out our Ultra Series Spinnaker Pole Ends and more from West Marine!
www.westmarine.com
Last question, that end is shown on an aluminum pole and mine is apparently carbon. I'd assume the pole ID is probably a little smaller for an aluminum pole and my ends already fit a little loosely, should they be shimmed to fit snugly? I see Forespar makes adapting collars, although I haven't found any info or availability on them. In other arenas, loose fitment can generate non-engineered point loads that can break things, and y'all have already pointed out that the poles can break. Should I be concerned?
Thanks much.
ConchyDug
Member III
For sure just drill those rivets out and slap the end you want in. Boats over say 35' usually have socket end poles for the higher loads but the jaw ends work, just don't get too wild with hot reaching a sym kite. I have a jaw end on my mast side and it's held up, but I quit using sym kites like 5yrs ago. You can probably sell that socket end to recoup some expense as well.
Are the first 2 photos showing the pole you bought? Is the outboard jaw missing the pin?
I'd shim it, if the adapters don't work McMaster probably has something.
Are the first 2 photos showing the pole you bought? Is the outboard jaw missing the pin?
I'd shim it, if the adapters don't work McMaster probably has something.
Vtonian
E38 - Vashon
Thanks, Doug, that's interesting about the socket style for larger boats. I guess I'll keep an eye out for one that falls in my price range but go jaws for now and shim everything snug.
Yes, the pics are the pole I bought and the pin is just retracted in the jawed pic but it's fully functional.
Yes, the pics are the pole I bought and the pin is just retracted in the jawed pic but it's fully functional.
Vtonian
E38 - Vashon
Thanks, Kiba. That fits with my limited experience crewing (not foredeck, yet) on a 43' (socket) and a 33' (jaw) boat. When a gybe goes awry on the 33', it's concerning but mostly irritating, when it happens on the 43', it's alarming and borders on terrifying. Anything that can make the 43' safer and more efficient is well worth it. Well, for their budgets.
Pete the Cat
Member III
I think the end you are showing is great and I have those on my Tartan and its carbon pole. If you can get those for $200 that is a deal. I think most of the pole stock (carbon and aluminum) is measured by ID, but i could be wrong. As far as tight fit? I would be satisfied with close fit. I chose some new old fashioned aluminum jaws for my Ericson from Nauta (a Brazilian company) and they work fine--old fashioned construction, but solid. I chose to put them together with SS sheet metal screws (I do not recommend those to most uses on sailboat) because they are slightly superior to rivets that tend to loosen with shock loads of the chute.Hi folks. I was able to purchase a used spinnaker pole but it has a socket on one end. It looks like changing my mast fittings to accommodate those would be expensive (only paid $200 for the pole).
View attachment 49473 View attachment 49475
Ray (or anyone), you'd mentioned replacing ends for $200, were those like the Forespar UXP series composite ends?
View attachment 49477
Ultra Series Spinnaker Pole Ends | West Marine
Check out our Ultra Series Spinnaker Pole Ends and more from West Marine!
Last question, that end is shown on an aluminum pole and mine is apparently carbon. I'd assume the pole ID is probably a little smaller for an aluminum pole and my ends already fit a little loosely, should they be shimmed to fit snugly? I see Forespar makes adapting collars, although I haven't found any info or availability on them. In other arenas, loose fitment can generate non-engineered point loads that can break things, and y'all have already pointed out that the poles can break. Should I be concerned?
Thanks much.