Gybing spinnaker pole on E35-3...

[MarineCityBrian]

For those with racing experience on the E35-3, I was curious if this boat generally requires the pole to be gybed end-over-end, or via the dip-pole technique? I'm looking to set my boat up for running a chute and this would alter the setup a bit. Knowing the pole will be almost 16' long, I thought the end-over-end technique might be a bit unwieldy. The dip-pole technique usually takes a few more folks to execute, which could be an issue if somewhat shorthanded, but may be the needed technique for such a large pole. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated from this sage forum.

 

[bgary]

For those with racing experience on the E35-3, I was curious if this boat generally requires the pole to be gybed end-over-end, or via the dip-pole technique?

A couple of thoughts, NONE of which are specific to the 35-3....

1) some of it depends on how your pole is set up. If your pole has identical "jaws" at both ends, you may be able to do end-for-end gibes. It will require that the foreguy (the line down from the pole) and the topping lift (the line that raises the pole) have "bridles" that control the pole from the middle rather than at one end. If your foreguy and topping lift connect at the very end of the pole, it's set up for dip-pole and you'd need to add "bridles" in order to make it work end-for-end.

2) some of it depends on your priorities and skills. For racing, a good dip-pole gibe can be done very quickly... but requires more rigging (a sheet and a guy on each side of the sail). It also, as you note, requires more people, and more coordination. An end-for-end gibe can be simpler, does not require an extra line on each side, but can be a lot for one person to handle. My opinion (for whatever that's worth) is that 35-feet is about the biggest boat where an end-for-end gibe makes sense in racing mode - bigger than that, a person may not be able to muscle the pole out on the new side, especially if there is any sort of wind.

3) there's no hard-and fast rule that says a boat "requires" one style or the other. It boils down to the people skills and the gear. And, if the people skills steer you toward the end-for-end approach, it's (usually) fairly simple to convert the pole to work that way, if it isn't already.

$.02
Bruce

 

[Phil MacFarlane]

That big of a boat and pole should be dip pole gybed.

For years I raced and cruised single or double handed with one pole doing dip pole gybes.
It required lots of planning and lots of running around and quite often involved a terrible crash before the recovery.

About ten years ago I switched to a two pole gybe system. With this system the spinnaker is up and flying say on port pole. While the auto pilot is driving I will go set up the starboard pole. Then raise it into place ideally running very deep. once everything is set I turn the boat. during the change of course both poles are up and working. This is legal under racing rules but its not legal to leave it this way. So after the gybe is done I simply lower the topper on the port pole while easing the lazy after guy and pulling in on the port fore guy. The lazy port pole tip end finds its way to the bow of the boat where it rests until called upon again..

Once both poles are set up like this you can gybe back and fourth all day without ever having to leave the cockpit provided you have the lines led back.

This system does require some investment:

A second pole.

Lazy sheets and guys, meaning two spin sheets and two spin guys like on any dip pole set up.

A second topping lift.

A second fore guy.

And a second car or ring on the mast track.

Good Luck.

 

[Loren Beach]

If you are short handed and just out sailing (not rounding marks in a race), you might consider an ATN (or similar) sock. Then you can douse the chute while it is still hoisted, change the sheet and guy, clip the pole in for the other jibe, and raise the sock and let it fill again.

If short handed I would not do that in heavy air....
But then, if it's blowing hard the boat is going so fast there would be little need for the extra complexity. anyhow

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Thanks a bunch for the comments!

I too was thinking the 35-3 is either at the ragged edge or a bit too big to end-over-end, but then I do know some pretty big foredeck guys...

As for my Spinnaker pole, it's presently a pair of symmetrical jaw ends which I will be purchasing a pole for and fabricating my jaw release system for this winter. The ends are designed to have the "bridles" attached and presently has them (though with the custom length of my pole I'm anticipating fabricating new ones from Spectra; So in essence it's more set up for end-over-end gybes).

That said, with at least one person commenting that the boat is to big to end-over-end I do have a little concern starting with that setup. I suppose I can try wielding the pole a bit once I finish it to see how it feels over my head. While I think the double-pole setup is neat, I'm not sure I'm ready for that much investment presently, but certainly respect the insight especially seeing as how close in size the 35-2 is to the 35-3.

Also, the sock idea is great for non-racing usage!



Thanks again for the comments!

 

[supersailor]

Having a 34-2, which essentially is the same boat, I have found the pole can be rasseled across in light air. It is way too much to do in heavier air unless your foredeck guys are 350lbs and drag their knuckles on the deck. This boat requires a good seven crew to be effective on the race course and a good deal of training (practice) is required. That chute is a mighty big, unruly thing. Now that I am older and less inclined to go crazy, I keep my 1 1/2oz tri-radial in an ATN sleeve as it is used in higher winds (8kn+) and my 1/2oz drifter in a turtle. The drifter is good from about 1/2kn to 8kn then it better be down. The turtle is much easier to launch from than the traditional bag. Our spinnaker runs out here tend to be rather long so the extra little time expended to douse and reset are acceptable. Also no shorthanded screw-ups that are difficult to recover from (spinnaker drogue) I added a cam cleat on each side of the mast which helps control the halyard down shorthanded and the pole position.

 

[MarineCityBrian]

Having a 34-2, which essentially is the same boat, I have found the pole can be rasseled across in light air. It is way too much to do in heavier air unless your foredeck guys are 350lbs and drag their knuckles on the deck. This boat requires a good seven crew to be effective on the race course and a good deal of training (practice) is required. That chute is a mighty big, unruly thing. Now that I am older and less inclined to go crazy, I keep my 1 1/2oz tri-radial in an ATN sleeve as it is used in higher winds (8kn+) and my 1/2oz drifter in a turtle. The drifter is good from about 1/2kn to 8kn then it better be down. The turtle is much easier to launch from than the traditional bag. Our spinnaker runs out here tend to be rather long so the extra little time expended to douse and reset are acceptable. Also no shorthanded screw-ups that are difficult to recover from (spinnaker drogue) I added a cam cleat on each side of the mast which helps control the halyard down shorthanded and the pole position.

Excellent thoughts on the cam cleats on the mast - something I plan to do for all halyards, but adding for the topping lift is a great idea too.
And noted on the gorilla crew for heavy air !

Like you, I've also been considering the Asym route, but the unbeatable straight downwind performance of the symmetrical is attractive.

 

[p.gazibara]

I'm not sure how far into a reach you are interested in going, but I have seen the chode looking spinnaker attachment point on a mast track bent sideways on an E35 (not mine, another boat I checked out). Not sure how wild that ride was, but I'm not sure if you were really pushing the boat how well a ring would do with the compression load of a reach with a kite.

We dip the pole on spinnaker gybes on Cinderella (35-2), and when racing, the procedure was handled by a crew of 4 pretty seamlessly after some practice.

-P