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Raritan Head and Plumbing

lulugrace

Member I
Hello,

Recently bought an Ericson 35-III and noticed an odor (sanitation type) after flushing - coming from outside the boat. After having someone inside flush several times and watching the outside it appears the waste is discharging from the vent well above the water line at the head area. Just 2 weeks ago I had a pump out but the guy who did it seemed less than sure of what he was doing. Is it possible that the holding tank is full and is now discharging through the vent to the outside our could it be another problem? Since the head was about thirty years old I went ahead and replaced it with a new one but it did not solve this issue. Any help or ideas would be very much appreciated.

Dan
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Yup. There's a small port on the port topsides that is the all-important air vent for the holding tank.

If effluent is coming out there and running down the side of the boat, it probably means that a valve or seacock is set wrong. You pump the head, pressurize the holding tank, and the stuff has nowhere to go except out the air vent. Check the out flow diverter valve (mine was under the sink) and also make sure the sea cock is open.

Head valve systems are various depending on need (pumpout, overboard discharge, macerator pump, sea water flush, fresh water flush) but if you trace the path it's not hard to figure out.

It can be quite hard, at least if you're me, to confirm the diverter valve setting by handle position. On some models, not intuitive at all.
 

lulugrace

Member I
Yup. There's a small port on the port topsides that is the all-important air vent for the holding tank.

If effluent is coming out there and running down the side of the boat, it probably means that a valve or seacock is set wrong. You pump the head, pressurize the holding tank, and the stuff has nowhere to go except out the air vent. Check the out flow diverter valve (mine was under the sink) and also make sure the sea cock is open.

Head valve systems are various depending on need (pumpout, overboard discharge, macerator pump, sea water flush, fresh water flush) but if you trace the path it's not hard to figure out.

It can be quite hard, at least if you're me, to confirm the diverter valve setting by handle position. On some models, not intuitive at all.

Thanks Christian. I did make sure the sea water intake valve is open and it is sending water to the head. The only other thing I see under the sink is a valve on the hose for the sink to drain outboard. I also ran a snake through the sanitary hose to the holding tank when I replaced the head to make sure there was no obstruction there so I'm thinking it should have a clear shot to the holding tank. I thought the diverter valve was within the head (joker valve) which is all new???
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Do you have an overboard discharge option? If not, the vent hose may be clogged which could inhibit pumpout.

If you do have overboard discharge, the key valves are #8 and #9, and the vent hose is #5.

-Sanitation-5.jpg
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Per Christian's diagram, the "stock" EY layout in the 80's has a Y Valve in the discharge line from the head, at the point marked "3" and there is also another Y Valve between the points marked "9" and "10". When both of those valves are aligned, you pump directly overboard -- in approved international waters of course.
Further, at the electric pump at the "10" location, our setup has a manual pump mounted on the front of the counter in the head compartment, giving the advantage of being able to pump the contents of the HT overboard.
Lots of choices for eliminating your enthusiastic effluent.
:)
 

lulugrace

Member I
Per Christian's diagram, the "stock" EY layout in the 80's has a Y Valve in the discharge line from the head, at the point marked "3" and there is also another Y Valve between the points marked "9" and "10". When both of those valves are aligned, you pump directly overboard -- in approved international waters of course.
Further, at the electric pump at the "10" location, our setup has a manual pump mounted on the front of the counter in the head compartment, giving the advantage of being able to pump the contents of the HT overboard.
Lots of choices for eliminating your enthusiastic effluent.
:)

Thanks Loren,

I don’t think the fellow I bought it from had it set up for overboard discharge since it was primarily a Lake Erie boat (I could be wrong) so I’m thinking more along the lines of a clog somewhere. I will check all those things though.

Thanks again!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Good points. The Great Lakes are a total no discharge zone, and I imagine that most all boats there have simplified their head plumbing to suit.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
It sounds to me like the tank is full. The head is new and the line to the tank is clear. The full tank is overflowing out the vent.

Why is the recently pumped tank still full? a) Valve #8 was lined up tank to OB discharge Valve #9 and not to the deck pumpout #7. (Bad line up, valve stuck and/or valve handle broken off in OB lineup.) b) clog in line to deck pumpout #7, much less likely.
I don't think there is a vent clog because it's overflowing.
A method to check tank level is needed. I have a SCAD tank monitor and a clear viewport (always works). Can you visually check it? Thump it or try to lift it to check fill level?
My factory tank is like Christian's diagram except there is no Y Valve #8, both the OB discharge hose and deck pumpout hose connect direct to the tank bottom so there is no valve lineup to deal with for either OB or deck pumpout (my only choice in the Chesapeake).

Mark
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
My E32-3 could divert the toilet contents to the holding tank, or overboard to the ocean.

However, once full, the holding tank was to be emptied by a dockside head vacuum as recommended by the manual. There was basically no other practical way. I marveled at Ericson's expectation of a world fully equipped for dockside pump-out.

Yes, the holding tank seems to be full. But there must be lots of pump-out stations on the Great Lakes.
 

lulugrace

Member I
Thanks Mark and Christian. Yes, there are many pump out stations along Lake Erie and I did use one about two weeks ago. I am trying to grasp the mechanics/physics of why the pump out seems to have been unsuccessful. As mentioned I'm not sure there is a Y-valve (8 in the diagram) or if so I don't think it is in the wrong position. I'll try to find it and check though. Could it be that the connection from the tank to the pump-out (4 to 7 in the diagram) is obstructed? And if so, why couldn't the pump out operation draw it through? I did watch the operator and it seemed he had a good seal at 7?
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I'm pretty sure that when you trace the plumbing and identify the valves it will come clear. Do draw a diagram. Mine is so complicated I drew it on the boat.

...t ovbd vs. deck waste bottom drawer.JPG...t fresh or salt flush.JPG...t best overall.JPG
 

lulugrace

Member I
IC. If that is under the sink in the head it is much more complicated than mine. I just have two lines with a valve on them; sea water intake and sink drain to overboard. I will check around the holding tank amidships also. Reading some other forums I'm really leaning toward a vent line problem. Although the waste is going overboard through the vent it looks like a very restricted flow. We'll see.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
We only have the pumpout option on the Chesapeake. The city of Annapolis runs a pumpout boat from spring to fall that will visit you at your slip. The boat owner operates the business end of the hose at the boat's deck fitting. The hose has soft conical gasket on the end to make the seal to your deck fitting by pressing down. The hose has a clear section so you can monitor flow and it is obvious when you are pumping and when your tank is empty. The hose also has a valve at the end which remains shut until the boat operator starts the pump and builds a vacuum in the hose. The boat owner opens the valve and flow happens. The process for my 20 gal holding tank takes a couple of minutes. It seems pretty hard to get this wrong but then I may just be exceptional at this type of work.

If you read Peggy Hall's book, which I recommend, you will learn that getting air into the holding tank via the vent line is the best way to eliminate holding tank odors. My original vent was a 1/2 inch clear tube (not sanitary hose) that was too long and ran all over the place instead of directly up to the vent. When I had the entire sanitary system out of the boat to redo everything over a winter, I replaced that vent with a 1.5 inch sanitary hose direct (about 4 feet straight up) to an open thru hull for the vent. Between this, replacing all the sanitary hoses and adding fresh water flush (which you already have in the Great Lakes!), I have zero head stink.


Mark
 

Bolo

Contributing Partner
We only have the pumpout option on the Chesapeake. The city of Annapolis runs a pumpout boat from spring to fall that will visit you at your slip. The boat owner operates the business end of the hose at the boat's deck fitting. The hose has soft conical gasket on the end to make the seal to your deck fitting by pressing down. The hose has a clear section so you can monitor flow and it is obvious when you are pumping and when your tank is empty. The hose also has a valve at the end which remains shut until the boat operator starts the pump and builds a vacuum in the hose. The boat owner opens the valve and flow happens. The process for my 20 gal holding tank takes a couple of minutes. It seems pretty hard to get this wrong but then I may just be exceptional at this type of work.

If you read Peggy Hall's book, which I recommend, you will learn that getting air into the holding tank via the vent line is the best way to eliminate holding tank odors. My original vent was a 1/2 inch clear tube (not sanitary hose) that was too long and ran all over the place instead of directly up to the vent. When I had the entire sanitary system out of the boat to redo everything over a winter, I replaced that vent with a 1.5 inch sanitary hose direct (about 4 feet straight up) to an open thru hull for the vent. Between this, replacing all the sanitary hoses and adding fresh water flush (which you already have in the Great Lakes!), I have zero head stink.


Mark
Hello,

Recently bought an Ericson 35-III and noticed an odor (sanitation type) after flushing - coming from outside the boat. After having someone inside flush several times and watching the outside it appears the waste is discharging from the vent well above the water line at the head area. Just 2 weeks ago I had a pump out but the guy who did it seemed less than sure of what he was doing. Is it possible that the holding tank is full and is now discharging through the vent to the outside our could it be another problem? Since the head was about thirty years old I went ahead and replaced it with a new one but it did not solve this issue. Any help or ideas would be very much appreciated.

Dan

Dan, Since we both sail in restricted waters as far as waste dumping goes, you on the Great Lakes and I on the Chesapeake, we are in the same boat (sorry about that) as far as sanitation goes on board. First of all, I think your tank was never pumped out properly. As was stated here in this forum, when using a pump out station gear the hose going to your boat has a “sight glass” of sorts usually in the form of a clear plexiglass pipe connection next to the hose valve that will clear show the extraction of the tank waste. Also you seem to indicate that someone else did the pumping out, that is handled the hose on board. I’ve always done that chore as most sailors on the bay do and by using the “sight glass” you should know if anything is being pumped out and see when the flow stops indicating that the tank is empty. So, I suggest the first step is for you to make another trip to a pump out station, handle the hose yourself and look at the sight glass/pipe to make sure you tank is empty. Then, if you can, make a visual inspection of the tank by banging on it or even trying to move it around to “feel” if it full. This might require you to loosen up any restraints holding the tank down. If it’s still full after your next pump out attempt (and nothing was seen thru the sight glass during the whole process) then the hose to the deck fitting is clogged but I find that highly unlikely since it would take a lot to clog it up. I suspect that the tank wasn’t properly pumped out in the first place. As for the vent hose. You say that that was waste discharging from the vent. Was this all the time? Perhaps there was just some water/waste in the line? After another pump out, done correctly, and checking the tank to see if it full, I’d give another look at that vent to see if it’s still discharging fluid.

As for head plumbing, sometimes it can look like something you might find as a nuclear power plant, especially if a “Y” with overboard pumping is installed. When I bought my E32-3 the head was in terrible, smelly shape. I replaced the waste tank, added a tank monitoring system (which also monitors the fresh water tanks), replaced all the hoses and removed the “Y” valve and overboard manual pump since no overboard dumping on the bay is allowed. I capped off the overboard thru hull valve and they’re still in place in case someone wants to put a “Y” valve back in and have overboard pumping again. This greatly simplified the situation. I should also say that I think a slight whiff of waste tank, from the vent, is normal IMO. After all you’re replacing air with fluid and it’s got to go someplace and that’s one of the reasons for the vent. I will smell it sometimes when I’m under sail and someone else uses the head which is natural since I’m sort of downwind from the head. But it’s just a whiff and nothing more.

One last thing is to check your joker valve on the head itself, especially if you’re getting “drain back” from the waste line and even a smell in the head compartment. That's assuming that the waste line isn’t permeated and needs replacing. I recently replaced my old and worn out Raritan head with a new Jabsco head (which I consider better) and had “drain back” right away. After some investigation I determined that the brand new joker valve that came with the new head was defective. After I replaced the joker valve all my problems went away.

I’m assuming that you’re new to marine sanitation so please excuse me if I’ve been stating the obvious on this subject. These are all things that I’ve learned by working on my Ericson.
 

Nick J

Contributing Partner
Moderator
Blogs Author
Christian,

I'm in the middle of redesigning my waste plumbing to get rid of the Jabsco electric head and stop the bowl from filling up when someone forgets to close the raw water seacock. I thought I had most everything figured out then I noticed the 2 valves in you sink drain / head water supply system. with the exception of adding a vented loop to my system, I was going to keep the original design of a T after the thru hull (I'm assuming its original), but now I'm wondering if I need to add a y valve below the sink drain. Do you find the 2 valves necessary?

1597756813325.png

Thanks,

Nick
 

lulugrace

Member I
Dan, Since we both sail in restricted waters as far as waste dumping goes, you on the Great Lakes and I on the Chesapeake, we are in the same boat (sorry about that) as far as sanitation goes on board. First of all, I think your tank was never pumped out properly. As was stated here in this forum, when using a pump out station gear the hose going to your boat has a “sight glass” of sorts usually in the form of a clear plexiglass pipe connection next to the hose valve that will clear show the extraction of the tank waste. Also you seem to indicate that someone else did the pumping out, that is handled the hose on board. I’ve always done that chore as most sailors on the bay do and by using the “sight glass” you should know if anything is being pumped out and see when the flow stops indicating that the tank is empty. So, I suggest the first step is for you to make another trip to a pump out station, handle the hose yourself and look at the sight glass/pipe to make sure you tank is empty. Then, if you can, make a visual inspection of the tank by banging on it or even trying to move it around to “feel” if it full. This might require you to loosen up any restraints holding the tank down. If it’s still full after your next pump out attempt (and nothing was seen thru the sight glass during the whole process) then the hose to the deck fitting is clogged but I find that highly unlikely since it would take a lot to clog it up. I suspect that the tank wasn’t properly pumped out in the first place. As for the vent hose. You say that that was waste discharging from the vent. Was this all the time? Perhaps there was just some water/waste in the line? After another pump out, done correctly, and checking the tank to see if it full, I’d give another look at that vent to see if it’s still discharging fluid.

As for head plumbing, sometimes it can look like something you might find as a nuclear power plant, especially if a “Y” with overboard pumping is installed. When I bought my E32-3 the head was in terrible, smelly shape. I replaced the waste tank, added a tank monitoring system (which also monitors the fresh water tanks), replaced all the hoses and removed the “Y” valve and overboard manual pump since no overboard dumping on the bay is allowed. I capped off the overboard thru hull valve and they’re still in place in case someone wants to put a “Y” valve back in and have overboard pumping again. This greatly simplified the situation. I should also say that I think a slight whiff of waste tank, from the vent, is normal IMO. After all you’re replacing air with fluid and it’s got to go someplace and that’s one of the reasons for the vent. I will smell it sometimes when I’m under sail and someone else uses the head which is natural since I’m sort of downwind from the head. But it’s just a whiff and nothing more.

One last thing is to check your joker valve on the head itself, especially if you’re getting “drain back” from the waste line and even a smell in the head compartment. That's assuming that the waste line isn’t permeated and needs replacing. I recently replaced my old and worn out Raritan head with a new Jabsco head (which I consider better) and had “drain back” right away. After some investigation I determined that the brand new joker valve that came with the new head was defective. After I replaced the joker valve all my problems went away.

I’m assuming that you’re new to marine sanitation so please excuse me if I’ve been stating the obvious on this subject. These are all things that I’ve learned by working on my Ericson.


Thanks Bolo. I tend to agree that the previous pump-out was probably not successful. The marina I have to go to (closest) for that charges a nominal fee but want to do it themselves. I do know what to look for now thanks to your above info. I'm still concerned about the vent though. When waste is discharging through there is seems like a divided spray like something is stuck in there. So, the expert on sanitation -> Peggy Hall says that the through hull port is the most likely spot for a clog and to scrape it out so I'm going to try that, then, re-pump out and see what happens. Will let you know.

Thanks again,

Dan
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Nick, regarding your schematic, I have always understood that, while not absolutely necessary, it's best for the head flushing intake to be a separate thruhull.
It's possible to have it suck air when shared with the sink drain, which on our boat is noticeably closer to the waterline.

Another note: when we had a new and larger capacity holding tank built by Ronco, I opted for having all piping enter at the top. The tubes for deck pumpout and also for the on-board manual pumpout are both dip tubes that extend to near the bottom with angled cut-off ends. This way there was no longer any way for a hose connection to leak and spill out the tank contents.

ps: Peggy's book is excellent.
pps: Our boat did not come with either of your vented loops (5 and 6), and we have never added them . Hose runs are a lot shorter and for security the hull valves are closed when we are off the boat.
 
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Geoff W.

Makes Up For It With Enthusiasm
Blogs Author
Another vote for the tank being full.

If you can go pump it out yourself, bring a friend who loves you and won't mind standing close by, and give them a pair of gloves. Go through a few cycles of pump -> rinse tank -> pump until the water is pretty clear. Then, hold the pump to the holding tank, and point the hose at the vent fitting. It'll suck in water like a straw, and you'll likely rinse anything that could be in there back into the holding tank. You should do this any time you accidentally overfill the tank and pump out to the vent.

Before you go too far down the rabbit hole of trying to solve a problem in your plumbing that isn't 100% confirmed to be there yet, I would try to go pump it out yourself so you can confirm that the unsuccessful pump out wasn't because of operator error. Head work is not fun, and I wouldn't want to do anything I didn't have to do.
 

lulugrace

Member I
Totally agree Geoff. All that is what I plan to do except after scraping the vent thru-hull out I planned on opening the pump out port and briefly put a short blast of garden hose water into the vent to try and clear any leftover clog that MAY be there then to the pump-out.

Thanks for everyone's support in this nasty endeavor :)
 
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