Sustainability

[K2MSmith]

Thoughts on a rainy afternoon....

I recently have been thinking about sustainability and recycling in the fiberglass boat industry. Ericson made about 25 Ericson 33RH's and I know the whereabouts of maybe 2-3 of them. I assume there are probably a few more in the hands of active sailors that are not necessarily on this forum. Where are the rest of them ? Probably in the landfill.

In fact, the process of "junking" a fiberglass boat involves selling it to company who removes all the reusable components, cuts up the hull is cut up onto smaller pieces and relegated to a landfill. This is a different, say, from a car where a lot of parts /body etc. are potentially recyclable. I am not an expert on this, but I would think metal hull (aluminum and steel) boats are much more recyclable since the metals can be melted down, reprocessed in some way and made into something else (of course, there is not going to be 100% efficiency in this process).

This may be a rationalization but by buying an old boat and fixing it up, we are in a way delaying it's trip to landfill. We are giving it a "new life" and if we decide to sell it, we are passing it on into the community where it will hopefully continue it's life in the hands of a new skipper who is interested in preserving it as much as you are.

Some food for thought...

 

[debonAir]

That is a tough call to make. If I think of the gallons of junk I use annually just to keep the boat not terribly ugly: bottom paint, acetone, varnish, etc. which are full of VOCs (and environmental hazards like copper), and then the diesel, oil, propane, etc. to run it, and the shrink wrap in the fall, there's a LOT of environmental damage each year which would all end when the boat hits the landfill. I suppose the best thing would be to drain the fuel and sink it to make a wildlife habitat.

As fuel costs rise, there has been more interest in grinding them up and using them for clinker-tube fuel in concrete manufacturing to replace some oil, and the glass provides needed silica in the process. Old tires end up in there too supplying iron (steel belts) as well as energy.

Best to just imagine how much better we are than power boats at least!! (now I am wondering how much oil goes in to making one genoa... and if I would go further just using that in the engine vs the sail..). Its tough to include every little thing in all the math.

 

[Filkee]

A diesel mechanic friend of mine says sailboat owners are much worse than powerboat owners when it comes to leaks and spills. Don’t know if it’s true but there it is.

 

[K2MSmith]

Thoughts on a rainy afternoon....

I recently have been thinking about sustainability and recycling in the fiberglass boat industry. Ericson made about 25 Ericson 33RH's and I know the whereabouts of maybe 2-3 of them. I assume there are probably a few more in the hands of active sailors that are not necessarily on this forum. Where are the rest of them ? Probably in the landfill.

In fact, the process of "junking" a fiberglass boat involves selling it to company who removes all the reusable components, cuts up the hull is cut up onto smaller pieces and relegated to a landfill. This is a different, say, from a car where a lot of parts /body etc. are potentially recyclable. I am not an expert on this, but I would think metal hull (aluminum and steel) boats are much more recyclable since the metals can be melted down, reprocessed in some way and made into something else (of course, there is not going to be 100% efficiency in this process).

This may be a rationalization but by buying an old boat and fixing it up, we are in a way delaying it's trip to landfill. We are giving it a "new life" and if we decide to sell it, we are passing it on into the community where it will hopefully continue it's life in the hands of a new skipper who is interested in preserving it as much as you are.

Some food for thought...

The bottom on my boat gets painted every 3 years by well known company in the bay area . They get inspected for environmental hazards and proper storage and disposal of paints , solvents and other hazards ( California regulations on shops are tough - my wife used to work in recycling and solid waste ) . If you maintain your boat , It shouldn’t leak fuel into the water. There is a carbon footprint for sails and other parts you add to your boat, but how often do you replace those ?
it doesn’t seem to me that we incur much ongoing impact in comparison to throwing the whole thing in a landfill, but I think someone with more knowledge than I would have run the numbers to prove it .

 

[Chris Mc.]

When I delve into deep thoughts like this, I think of cow farts and quickly realize I need to think about something else.

 

[Filkee]

I should also mention that my friend has a Formula that burns like 80gph.

 

[K2MSmith]

I should also mention that my friend has a Formula that burns like 80gph.

That’s $300 for a one hour spin ..

 

[racushman]

I also continue to find it amazing how many borderline derelict boats are sitting in slips at $300-$600 a month in marinas I've frequented in the last few years. I assume they have owners who dream of someday restoring them to their former glory. Presumably most will go to the landfill. But for now they sit. I suspect there is a big backlog of classic plastic boats from the heydays of the 70s/80s/90s that are no longer economically viable to restore. Probably the same could be said about my boat, but hey I do it anyway.

 

[K2MSmith]

I also continue to find it amazing how many borderline derelict boats are sitting in slips at $300-$600 a month in marinas I've frequented in the last few years. I assume they have owners who dream of someday restoring them to their former glory. Presumably most will go to the landfill. But for now they sit. I suspect there is a big backlog of classic plastic boats from the heydays of the 70s/80s/90s that are no longer economically viable to restore. Probably the same could be said about my boat, but hey I do it anyway.

I see the same . I’m guessing either these boats are kept for crash pads or the owner lost interest but has hopes maybe of returning to it someday.
i do notice very few -new- boats . Most seem to be 90’s to early 2000’s . There quite a few J/105’s because of the class racing fleet here. I’m not sure if this is a normal distribution, but if there are so few new boats you have to wonder if there is a viable industry for boat builders anymore . Maybe the market is in charter.

 

[Dave G.]

I don't know about brand new boat sales but newer used sailboats like 2000 thru 2010 vintage have been selling like crazy up here in the Great Lakes. These are mostly 40+ footers with price tags in the $200k+ range. Seems like older boats 70s, 80s, are not selling near as well. I equate the difference to cost of ownership, average Joe/Jill could probably afford to buy a 25-30k sailboat but slips, storage, maintenance, repairs, etc. is a ongoing cost that knocks them out of contention. The guy or gal that's spending $200k+ for a used sailboat is not concerned with the annual reoccurring expenses so they're buying. If I didn't do all my own maintenance and repair, belong to a club with below market slip fee's, and have this forum for support and information, well I probably wouldn't be able to purchase & maintain my modest EY either. Definitely a lot of recycling and refurbing at my level anyway.

 

[K2MSmith]

I don't know about brand new boat sales but newer used sailboats like 2000 thru 2010 vintage have been selling like crazy up here in the Great Lakes. These are mostly 40+ footers with price tags in the $200k+ range. Seems like older boats 70s, 80s, are not selling near as well. I equate the difference to cost of ownership, average Joe/Jill could probably afford to buy a 25-30k sailboat but slips, storage, maintenance, repairs, etc. is a ongoing cost that knocks them out of contention. The guy or gal that's spending $200k+ for a used sailboat is not concerned with the annual reoccurring expenses so they're buying. If I didn't do all my own maintenance and repair, belong to a club with below market slip fee's, and have this forum for support and information, well I probably wouldn't be able to purchase & maintain my modest EY either. Definitely a lot of recycling and refurbing at my level anyway.

Financing may play a role in that . It’s probably easier to get a mortgage on a the 2010 boat , than an older boat ( where you might just pay cash for the whole thing ) . Interest rates are low . The sweet spot is to find an older boat that someone has poured a lot of money into it already . I guess whoever eventually buys my boat will have done that :-!

 

[Filkee]

That’s $300 for a one hour spin ..

Yeah, but on the Kesel run...

 

[G Kiba]

From what I understand, you can not finance a boat that is over 30 years old. So at that point your market for selling is limited to cash buyers. Coming up with 30-60K for recreation is not easy on a budget for most people. Let alone the expense and skills needed to keep and maintain a sailboat. I think that makes most, if not all of us, a special breed of people being the many folks these days don't know how to change a flat tire.

 

[Filkee]

From what I understand, you can not finance a boat that is over 30 years old. So at that point your market for selling is limited to cash buyers. Coming up with 30-60K for recreation is not easy on a budget for most people. Let alone the expense and skills needed to keep and maintain a sailboat. I think that makes most, if not all of us, a special breed of people being the many folks these days don't know how to change a flat tire.

Sometimes I think I like the tinkering more than the sailing. But then May rolls around.

 

[Afrakes]

When I came to the conclusion that the 81' 28+ I purchased was going to cost me about four times to restore what the mast less 87' 28/2 was going to cost, to the dump she went. I stripped everything usable off of the 81'. The mast I adapted to the 87'. for a few years until I was able to purchase the proper sized mast from a local 86' 28/2 being crushed due to unpaid storage fees.

Over the years I've been able to sell or repurpose just about all that I salvaged from the 81'. The sale of the 95' Yanmar diesel and the lead keel eased the financial pain a bit. The hull, which I cut up into manageable pieces with a Sawzall and 4" angle grinder, was disposed of in the local landfill. Thanks to a friend, who managed the facility. I was able to pay commercial rates.

I've saved and sold a number of older sailboats, three of them wooden, since the 1970's. Most went on to new owners for continued use. I know of only one that had to be disposed of due to marital difficulties.

I, like a number of others on this forum, am able to sail because I do all of the maintenance myself. I've taken joy from what I have been able to pass on to others. None of this has ever been done with the object of making money. Come on now, we're talking about boats, and breaking even is a pipe dream.

As far as sustainablilty is concerned I've done what I hope has been my fair share. By the way, anybody out there need a bunch of interior teak trim from the 81' 28+? How about an old bronze seacock? Good sailing to you all. Our local sailing season will begin soon along with the maintenance.

 

[Kenneth K]

Re-builds are good. Junk-yards are good. This, not so good:


About 10 miles from my house.

 

[Teranodon]

... the process of "junking" a fiberglass boat involves selling it to company who removes all the reusable components, cuts up the hull is cut up onto smaller pieces and relegated to a landfill. ....

Is there a serious problem here? Fiberglass is almost completely inert/indestructible, and there is lots of space for landfills. Sure, landfills cost money, but not that much, and so does almost everything else. I can think of many, many more important environmental challenges.

 

[David Grimm]

Re-builds are good. Junk-yards are good. This, not so good:

View attachment 37808
About 10 miles from my house.

Ahhh. Must be a new green way to keep the UV from deteriorating the vessel!

 

[Afrakes]

Is there a serious problem here? Fiberglass is almost completely inert/indestructible, and there is lots of space for landfills. Sure, landfills cost money, but not that much, and so does almost everything else. I can think of many, many more important environmental challenges.

Yes, there are various degrees of importance. They don't cancel one another out.

 

[windblown]

Financing may play a role in that . It’s probably easier to get a mortgage on a the 2010 boat , than an older boat ( where you might just pay cash for the whole thing ) . Interest rates are low . The sweet spot is to find an older boat that someone has poured a lot of money into it already . I guess whoever eventually buys my boat will have done that :-!

I think financing plays a significant part. We couldn’t find a bank that would finance a boat over 30 years old, but we had the option of an unsecured loan or HELOC that some (younger?) investors might not have. Add moorage and storage to the monthly cost, and it may look prohibitive. However, while we sink several thousand $$/year into maintenance and upgrades, we have a beautiful, well-built vessel that holds its value and is fun to sail. Down the dock, our friends who took 10 year financing on $100,000+ newer boats have the same costs for moorage and storage, but they are paying interest to the bank instead of keeping Defender going and acquiring maintenance skills. While they think their newer boats require less maintenance, we all know nature, water, and UV have time on their side. Add in rapid depreciation for those newer production boats (that result in ”under water” loans with the re-sale value less than the balance due), and I think we clearly have made the wisest investment choices.