Late night fun with bilge pumps - trying to diagnose problem

[bsangs]

The crazy rain we had here in NJ - started Friday, didn't stop until about 2 am today - kept filling my bilge through the mast. My marina neighbor texted me about 8 pm last night to let me know the high water alarm I installed properly last week (thank God) was going off. He went over to check things out and my centrifugal bilge pump was spinning, but not removing any water. First time that's ever happened, so figured the pump had burned itself out and needed to be changed. No problem, as I have a couple on hand. So wife and I bolted over to marina in the driving rain to check out the issue. Took the pump off, checked and cleaned the debris screen and impeller, ran a couple tests and it was operating correctly, but not moving any water. Tried the manual Whale gusher pump from the cockpit, it also wasn't moving any water. Hmmm.

I remembered fooling around last summer, trying to get an understanding of the bilge system, when I discovered a flapper valve leading to the "T" where the automatic and manual bilge pump hoses meet. It prevents water from the automatic pump going into the manual pump bilge chamber as it passes out to the exit. Took the manual bilge pickup hose off, pushed the flapper valve back, water came out (not too much), and then I decided to try the automatic pump again, and it worked properly, draining the bilge. Put everything back together, but wanted to check the manual pump again. Filled the bilge, went to the cockpit, pumped until my arm got sore, then my wife did the same, and nothing came through the manual pump. Makes its pumping/sucking noises, but no water.

So, two questions: 1) Why did the automatic pump not remove any water before I checked that flapper valve? Is that an example of the dreaded "air lock" I've read about, but never experienced? 2) Where do I start in diagnosing why the manual pump isn't pulling out any water? I believe it worked last year when I tested it, but have never had to use it since. Outside of the pickup hose, it shares the same hoses as the automatic, so I'm pretty sure there's no blockage in the hose. The manual Whale gusher pump was installed by the previous owner, and is less than 10 years old, so I wouldn't think it would fail already. Stumped!

 

[Dave G.]

Why did the automatic pump not remove any water before I checked that flapper valve?

By flapper valve I presume that's a check valve ? Check valves have a reputation of failing so that would be my first suspect. Not clear on how your system is plumbed. If you can isolate the hose going to the Whale pump you could test it on it's own to see if it's working then, maybe stick it in a bucket of water if needed. On my boat the 2 systems are totally separate from pickup to discharge. I had thought most or all would be the same. Maybe you could post a diagram of how it's plumbed ?

 

[bsangs]

Instead of rehashing the setup again, I'll just post this link. (My setup begins at Post #89.) https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/factory-original-bilge-pumps-in-32-3.20451/page-5

In a nutshell though, the automatic pump is in bilge chamber forward of the manual pump. Its hose connects to a singular main hose which heads aft above the bilge chamber in which the manual pump sits. The manual pump connects to that main hose, and has a flapper (check) valve in the T so no water from the automatic pump gets in. All water then travels back through the main hose, which does its weird thing at the manual pump, which you'll see in the pictures of that post.

 

[Loren Beach]

A long time ago, when I temporarily believed the (maximum theoretical flow rate) ads for centrifugal pumps, I installed a Rule pump. Then with no warning it would air-lock, regularly; those type of pumps hate any (inevitable) sags in the long exit hose runs on sailboats. They are great, however, for smaller power boats with a short straight lift to an OB exit fitting. That is, no mistake, 98% of their intended market. Our club uses them on all three of our OB-powered utility boats.

Install a Jabsco 37202 series. They incorporate a check valve as part of their design. Our '88 boat came with two of them, from EY. Their published flow rate seems low, but is "real world" achievable, which is a "big deal." Relatively expensive, but worth it. (Expensive in this case means it is slightly more than my monthly cable-internet billing. Go figure. )
They are remote mounted and include a coarse filter that mounts just before the pump. A small strum box is in the bilge.

Separate from all this 12 volt routine bilge dewatering is your large emergency manual bilge pump. EY put those ($$$) in all their boats starting in the 80's. Those meet the offshore racing rules for a manual pump usable from the helm position. That pump system has to have an unimpeded run from bilge strum box to pump to discharge, separate from other valves and pump plumbing. It is a 'last resort' when there is major flooding and the driver is pumping vigorously while crew is finding/staunching the leak. Note B: you should replace the old check valves in that pump body if yours is original from EY, from 40 years ago; the rubber is those valves get hard as heck after all these decades and will no longer seal.

 

[Christian Williams]

my centrifugal bilge pump was spinning, but not removing any water.

Yeah. That was it for me and such pumps. I thought I was sinking for 2,500 miles. Changed to diaphragm pump.

manual pump isn't pulling out any water?

Rubber diaphragms are shot, Interior valves stuck, intake hose admitting air, and so on. Most of the big original Whale manual pumps need renewal by now. There are kits. They are critical components and one saved my hide.

E381 - Ericson 38-- Bilge Pump Systems and Considerations

What are bilge pumps for? I admit that for the first half of my life I figured they were there to keep the boat from sinking. But of course, they won't. Not even the manual Whale diaphragm that came with the boat will do that. Surely not the...

www.ericsonyachts.org

Regarding air lock:

 

[bsangs]

manual pump isn't pulling out any water?

Rubber diaphragms are shot, Interior valves stuck, intake hose admitting air, and so on. Most of the big original Whale manual pumps need renewal by now. There are kits. They are critical components and one saved my hide.

Let me ask you this @Christian Williams - does there need to be a certain amount of water for the manual pump to work? Or should it operate properly no matter what? I'm wondering if too much air was "mixing" with the water when I tried to operate it. When I'm at the boat tomorrow, I'm going to fill the bilge pretty high to experiment.

 

[Christian Williams]

Diaphragm pump doesn't need water to work, but we need water to prove it does. Good plan.

 

[windblown]

my centrifugal bilge pump was spinning, but not removing any water.

Yeah. That was it for me and such pumps. I thought I was sinking for 2,500 miles. Changed to diaphragm pump.

manual pump isn't pulling out any water?

Rubber diaphragms are shot, Interior valves stuck, intake hose admitting air, and so on. Most of the big original Whale manual pumps need renewal by now. There are kits. They are critical components and one saved my hide.

E381 - Ericson 38-- Bilge Pump Systems and Considerations

What are bilge pumps for? I admit that for the first half of my life I figured they were there to keep the boat from sinking. But of course, they won't. Not even the manual Whale diaphragm that came with the boat will do that. Surely not the...

www.ericsonyachts.org

Regarding air lock:

Thank you for this. Now I get it.

 

[bsangs]

Diaphragm pump doesn't need water to work, but we need water to prove it does. Good plan.

This manual Whale pump continues to confound me. (Again, it's worth noting that the manual and the automatic share the same main hose from the bilge. The hose originates in a forward bilge compartment where the automatic pump is, and the manual pump Ts into the hose as it runs aft.)

Ran a test. Filled the main bilge hose with water from the automatic, but stopped the pump before water was completely expelled, and also left plenty of water in the bilge itself. Then went to up to the manual pump in the cockpit. Pumped away and got about 13 pumps of good water removal, before it stopped. Still would not remove water from the bilge itself, despite the draw hose being completely submerged.

Went down, took apart the draw hose that Ts into the main hose and removed the manual pump check valve flap located in it, to see if that was restricting water from coming up the hose. Put it all back together without the check valve, went up to pump again and it STILL wouldn't draw water from the bilge compartment. It has no problem pumping water that's already in the hoses, but will not draw water from the bilge compartment.

So if it pumps standing water from the hoses, that would seem to indicate the pump "works" - correct? Would that mean the draw hose from the bilge is just too steep to begin the process? I'm really stumped and would rather not replace or rebuild a working pump.

 

[Jerry VB]

Again, it's worth noting that the manual and the automatic share the same main hose from the bilge. The hose originates in a forward bilge compartment where the automatic pump is, and the manual pump Ts into the hose as it runs aft.

This confuses me. This is what I picture based on that description:

The automatic pump pushes water which it does successfully if the flapper valve is operational and there are no airlocks in the discharge hose. The manual pump pulls rather than pushes. If my diagram is correct, the manual pump will pull air from the discharge in preference vs. pulling water from the bilge (hey, it's much easier!).

If the flapper valve were after the tee, the manual pump should work(ish) because the flapper valve would (hopefully) prevent the manual pump from pulling air via the discharge hose and thus force it to pull water from the bilge. I would not recommend this because flapper valves are unreliable and doubly so when used to prevent the pulling air via the discharge hose. They are designed to prevent water (not air) from backflowing and, if they fail to prevent water from backflowing, it just results in the bilge having some level of standing water (backflow). If it is used to prevent the backflow of air to the manual pump and it fails to do that, it totally disables the manual pump.

 

[Loren Beach]

Then went to up to the manual pump in the cockpit. Pumped away and got about 13 pumps of good water removal, before it stopped. Still would not remove water from the bilge itself, despite the draw hose being completely submerged.

When I tested our big manual pump, a decade ago, I had to pump like crazy to get it to prime. Reason turned out to be that the 1988 rubber check valves inside were so stiffened as to not seal easily. After taking it apart and finding that the little ss clips/frames that held the check valves could not be removed due to corrosion with the screws... I replaced the pump with a new one. The pumps are indeed rebuildable, but with time and salt water corrosion they are really difficult to disassemble for repair.
Your "test" is what I would do, and also.... if your bilge hoses are the white ribbed vinyl like our OEM 1988 hoses, they may have gotten brittle and have started cracking and are allowing air inside. This stops them from holding a a vacuum and operating reliably in the first place. I replaced all of our bilge pumping hoses, too. Like most projects on old boat systems it took longer than planned. (!)

This emergency pumping system was built out with one dedicated hose from bilge to pump to transom and I cannot imagine EY doing it different in your model. Adding an intersection with another hose and then an unreliable check valve of any kind would be an Very unsafe idea. (That's if I understand your description of the hose discharge scheme that you inherited in your particular boat. If I misunderstand, I am sorry.)

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Brian, we're having a similar problem. Last fall I put a new Whale Gusher pump in the cockpit bulkhead where the old one had been. (On the old one the bracket securing the bellows was broken and the replacement part was almost as much as a new pump.) Before installing the new pump, I checked it with a bucket of water and confirmed that it worked. Our manual pump hose is dedicated with no connections or T's. Before I put the new pump in I blew in the hose to be sure I had a clear path. Yes. Then I plugged one end and blew in it to check for leaks. No. But once installed, when there was water in the bilge it would not pull. I haven't had time to troubleshoot further. Sorry, no help, but some commiseration.

 

[bsangs]

Brian, we're having a similar problem. Last fall I put a new Whale Gusher pump in the cockpit bulkhead where the old one had been. (On the old one the bracket securing the bellows was broken and the replacement part was almost as much as a new pump.) Before installing the new pump, I checked it with a bucket of water and confirmed that it worked. Our manual pump hose is dedicated with no connections or T's. Before I put the new pump in I blew in the hose to be sure I had a clear path. Yes. Then I plugged one end and blew in it to check for leaks. No. But once installed, when there was water in the bilge it would not pull. I haven't had time to troubleshoot further. Sorry, no help, but some commiseration.

Two other marina neighbors of mine have the same pump as me, and it doesn't work properly for them either. My foibles led them to check theirs. Now we're all stuck down the same rabbit hole.

 

[bsangs]

This confuses me. This is what I picture based on that description:
View attachment 47020
The automatic pump pushes water which it does successfully if the flapper valve is operational and there are no airlocks in the discharge hose. The manual pump pulls rather than pushes. If my diagram is correct, the manual pump will pull air from the discharge in preference vs. pulling water from the bilge (hey, it's much easier!).

If the flapper valve were after the tee, the manual pump should work(ish) because the flapper valve would (hopefully) prevent the manual pump from pulling air via the discharge hose and thus force it to pull water from the bilge. I would not recommend this because flapper valves are unreliable and doubly so when used to prevent the pulling air via the discharge hose. They are designed to prevent water (not air) from backflowing and, if they fail to prevent water from backflowing, it just results in the bilge having some level of standing water (backflow). If it is used to prevent the backflow of air to the manual pump and it fails to do that, it totally disables the manual pump.

I can't draw on a computer, or by hand, sorry. (I have other talents though. ) There's only one overboard discharge hose, and both the automatic and manual feed into it. That hose leads to a diverter in the cockpit, where a hose then connects from the diverter to the Whale, and another hose connected to the diverter reaches around underneath the Whale, and tees back into the discharge hose. Why? I do not know. The previous owner set it up this way. (FYI, the one discharge hose method is also done on some Sabre boats from what I've read.) In your sketch, the flapper/check valve would be located in that small section leading to the tee, it's part of a large connection nut that connects the manual pump draw hose to the main discharge hose. The flapper/check valve is NOT located in the main hose. Its sole purpose is to prevent the automatic pump discharge water from racing through the teed manual hose. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Christian Williams]

On my boat, a typical Ericson factory setup, there are three dedicated hoses for bilge pumps. One for shower, one for bilge (they're red). The Whale 10 manual has its own hose, larger diameter.

The two red hoses are twinned at the discharge point (hidden behind the exhaust hose in the photo).

The Whale manual has its own discharge fitting (larger white hose).




Any original Whale manual bilge pump probably has corrosion and brittle diaphragms and needs to be replaced.

Any issue with a new pump is very likely the uptake hose.

It takes about 10 strokes of my Whale to establish flow, but you know by feel immediately that it is going to work.

 

[bsangs]

On my boat, a typical Ericson factory setup, there are three dedicated hoses for bilge pumps. One for shower, one for bilge (they're red). The Whale 10 manual has its own hose, larger diameter.

The two red hoses are twinned at the discharge point (hidden behind the exhaust hose in the photo).

The Whale manual has its own discharge fitting (larger white hose).


View attachment 47021

Any original Whale manual bilge pump probably has corrosion and brittle diaphragms and needs to be replaced.

Any issue with a new pump is very likely the uptake hose.

It takes about 10 strokes of my Whale to establish prime, but you know by feel immediately that it is going to work.

Mine only has the larger white hose, and the automatic and manual both discharge through that. The other two red hoses are there, but were cut further forward many years ago, when the previous owner removed the shower bilge and the diaphragm pumps from the equation.

Also, he had the Whale pump rebuilt about five years ago, so I assume the corrosion and diaphragms were part of that process. I can pump for minutes with nothing coming up that isn't already in the hose. Must be the uptake hose. I'll continue to be stumped - until I'm not.

 

[Christian Williams]

For reference, here is the 35-III plumbing diagram, similar to my 381.





Given the "Note", if my manual didn't work, I would probably stick a water hose into the pickup line and try to force water up into the Whale 10 while pumping. Seems like that might lubricate dried out valves--or just be a harebrained idea. In any case, removing the Whale 10 to casually inspect it is awkward on my boat.

 

[Bepi]

Manual pump not working.... I pulled one out of a vessel this summer. After much loss of time I ended up using soapy water to look for leaks and found a crack in the housing. It was a tiny leak but enough to make the pump useless.

 

[bsangs]

Thanks for the replies. The most confounding part is that if there is water in the hose, the Whale pump removes it without issue, so seemingly, it "works." It just refuses to suck up standing water from the bilge compartment. Aggravating.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Thanks for the replies. The most confounding part is that if there is water in the hose, the Whale pump removes it without issue, so seemingly, it "works." It just refuses to suck up standing water from the bilge compartment. Aggravating.

That would suggest an air leak somewhere to me.