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Ericson 35-2 encapsulated keel - voids never filled?

I have read the same, and I even read a post elsewhere that Bruce King confirmed that lead shot was used to fill voids in these keels. That said, I have looked at every inch of the inside of the cavity with an endoscope, and there is not ONE pellet of shot anywhere. I also can't imagine that the shot would have "floated up" to get out of the voids deep in the keel. I suppose it is possible that it was removed, but for what reason? I though about the idea that the grounding that caused the hole in the leading edge could have cracked the entire keel and the shot dumped out the bottom, but no such damage appears on the inside, and the seam down the middle of the two hull halves seems perfectly intact except for where the damage occured. I would go ahead and fill it, but the voids there would probably need about fifteen gallons(maybe?) of shot, which could add 400 lbs to the keel. That's enough to change the boats sailing characteristics if it was not in the original design spec, and would also add a lot of weight just sitting on top of the fiberglass at the bottom. Currently, the casting is suspended, so it stays up there somehow. I have never felt it move in the slightest, even with the voids, so it seems pretty solidly set in there (maybe even bolted? -though no keel bolts are visible in the bilge. I will keep looking for answers, though. I may put a few shots up here later from the endoscope trip down the keel trunk so every one can see the fairly pristine condition of the glass on the inside of the keel.
Just an edit. I was wrong. I did find lead shot in the keel today, so I guess since I wasn't specifically looking for it, I missed it. It's hard with a small endoscope - a piece of lead shot looks like a cannonball, and not exactly round after fifty years. That said, I could only isolate around six pieces, so it went somewhere. It did. Right out of a large puncture I found today, once I figured out what I was looking at. It was repaired from the outside, and some of the delaminated puncture was pulled out during the repair, but ther is enough left to figure out what happened. Thanks everyone for your help with this!
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Interesting post. Glad you solved the mystery.

Since a keel strike is a threat to all keel boats, perhaps you might consider not refilling the void entirely with loose shot. If you filled the bottom 8-10 inches of the keel with mish-mash then another keel strike won't risk loosing all the shot.

You could alternate shot and mish-mash in layers to make "compartments" to hold the shot.

Just a thought.
 
Interesting post. Glad you solved the mystery.

Since a keel strike is a threat to all keel boats, perhaps you might consider not refilling the void entirely with loose shot. If you filled the bottom 8-10 inches of the keel with mish-mash then another keel strike won't risk loosing all the shot.

You could alternate shot and mish-mash in layers to make "compartments" to hold the shot.

Just a thought.
That is an excellent suggestion! I may do that.
 

gareth harris

Sustaining Member
If the yard can weigh the boat it would be interesting to see if she is the specification 11600 lbs. Some compensation will also have to be estimated for modification such as a teak cabin sole.

At my boat I am sure I have the specification for the keel specifically (it may be on this computer but my flight is about to board, if it is I should get back to you in about nine or ten hours), and I intend to go there in a couple of weeks so will try to find it if that will not be too late. I would think that getting as close as possible to specification would be important for the sailing characteristics in what was a well designed boat.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
There was no lead shot in the 81', 28+ keel. The foamed space between the solid lead and frp was between 1/4" and 3/8". Also there were no keel bolts. It was the first 28+ made according to this site. Maybe by that time someone got the idea loose lead shot was not such a great idea. Certainly, was an easy method of getting the ballast weight correct though.
 
There was no lead shot in the 81', 28+ keel. The foamed space between the solid lead and frp was between 1/4" and 3/8". Also there were no keel bolts. It was the first 28+ made according to this site. Maybe by that time someone got the idea loose lead shot was not such a great idea. Certainly, was an easy method of getting the ballast weight correct though.
Thanks, Afrakes - I am thinking it may not have been the greatest idea, but it was certainly easy to repair. We fixed the damage with 1708 and chopped strand, after grinding out the damage, then faired the keel. Then we drilled some holes, sourced the shot (the only place in MD we could find it to get it there in a couple hours was Hagerstown, MD, which incidentally is where we live, so my partner Laura brought 200 lbs down to Baltimore after work on Friday and it is now in the keel). I've been living at the boatyard to get the work done, so it has gone quickly. We've been pretty lucky in that regard. Also, the yard owner/manager has been a saint. We are going into five weeks of a planned two week haul, and he actually gave me three entire days of sling time over the weekend to fix the damage and fair things out, so I guess my karma is good. I don't think he has started the clock on the yard time either, since he's seen me working everyday, so the whole thing has worked out pretty well.
 
If the yard can weigh the boat it would be interesting to see if she is the specification 11600 lbs. Some compensation will also have to be estimated for modification such as a teak cabin sole.

At my boat I am sure I have the specification for the keel specifically (it may be on this computer but my flight is about to board, if it is I should get back to you in about nine or ten hours), and I intend to go there in a couple of weeks so will try to find it if that will not be too late. I would think that getting as close as possible to specification would be important for the sailing characteristics in what was a well designed boat.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
Gareth - I would REALLY appreciate anything you can tell me about the specifications for the keel. I have the manual on the boat, but I can't find a schedule for what should have been in that void. We went with lead shot - 200 lbs, but my estimate was closer to 450, so who knows. The 200 will certainly help support the casting, and we can always put in more later if it turns out my original estimate was correct. It has been quite the saga, but it is working out well. Any help would be very kindly appreciated! My yard can't weigh the boat, but as we are cruisers, I basically have enough spares to rebuild all but the block of the atomic 4 (and SO MUCH more!), so the boat is overweight no matter what. That would be interesting, however, to take all that gear off and take her to a yard that could weigh her just to see how close the empty boat is to spec.
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Joseph,
How much did the lead shot cost? Years ago I was adding ballast to my E27 to correct a port list and was surprised at the cost of lead ingots. At the suggestion by someone here I ended up going to an auto tire store and getting buckets of used tire weights.
 
Hi Joseph,
How much did the lead shot cost? Years ago I was adding ballast to my E27 to correct a port list and was surprised at the cost of lead ingots. At the suggestion by someone here I ended up going to an auto tire store and getting buckets of used tire weights.
I got 25 pound bags (8) for 118.00 per bag. The shop near us where we found it keeps it around for ballast on dirtbikes, (it's a motorcycle shop), but also for reloading shells. I didn't know motocross bikes had ballast, but now I do, I guess.
 
Just an update for those who might be interested. I am attaching a few images, first the damage cut back to good solid glass (no delamination), then I faired back to accommodate new glass, then 12 layers of 1708 and epoxy built out to over a half inch at the centerline and over the hole diminishing to fair with old glass, fairing as I went every three layers, then 400 pounds of lead shot, and a final fairing. The repair is complete, and ready for barrier coat! Only took two weeks of living in a Tyvek suit and respirator. As a side note, I did get offered a job by the yard manager, so there's that! Also, HUGE thanks to everyone who helped us sort out the mystery, and a big thank you to Pajo Gazibara, who confirmed my estimate for lead shot weight!
 

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gareth harris

Sustaining Member
Practical Sailor in a 1990 edition stated that the ballast of the E35 was 5000 lbs. It did not provide the source for that figure.

If the keel has uniform thickness then it may be possible to estimate its mass by measuring it and using the standard density for lead; if on the other hand its thickness varies with the thickness of the fibreglass then any estimate is probably going to be a waste of effort.

I'll try to scan the PS article to add to the documents on here.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 
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