Best way to locate source of leaking

[bsangs]

So I have an annoying leak on the port side of "Radiance," and I'll be damned if I can locate the source. Water leaks inside above the settee fixed port windows. Drips down from behind the strip of moulding above the windows. Doesn't always happen, but with a sustained heavy rain I can expect some dripping. Thing is, I cannot figure out from where it's coming. Zipped the headliner open, but the glass above the headliner is in perfect shape. Doesn't show any signs of moisture. Thought maybe it was coming from the mast, as I do get water traveling down the outside of the mast and into the bilge, and thought some water might be getting diverted toward the port side and dripping down. (Am planning to replace the mast boot cover in April.) That theory hasn't really paid dividends through the winter though. The boat is shrink wrapped and I've seen some water dripping down the mast while inside, but nothing in the problematic window area. Though the mast water doesn't get a chance to pool up above outside like it does when the boat isn't shrink wrapped.

Last offseason I filled some topside spider cracks with Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure, but it didn't alleviate the issue. In fact, the dripping was worse than the year before, though it was a much wetter summer. It's also worse at my home marina, where I'm tied to the dock on the port side. Had some torrential rain when we were moored during a trip to Block Island in August and very little water dripped inside. The port topside was the only area that registered moisture readings when I had the boat surveyed before purchasing her, and the previous owner did mention water occasionally dripping in this area, so while I'm not shocked it's happening, I'd like to be able to alleviate it.

The photo shows the area where the leaking occurs. I roll up some shop towels and wedge them in to collect the water so it doesn't drip down to the cushions. The windows themselves are not leaking, but sometimes the water drips down around them. (The water turns those towels a matching a shade of brown.)

Anyone who's experienced a similar leak, and if so, any theories as to the source and the best way to actually locate it? Thanks in advance, as always.

 

[Loren Beach]

At your boat's age, it is beyond the 30 (plus or minus) year point for re-bedding ALL deck penetrations. Annecdotal evidence suggests that cabin top leaks can migrate a bit and show up at the edges of the headliner.
Knowing that water has to (hopefully!) flow downhill, I would start with re-bedding parts on the top of the cabin and while the work is tedious I suspect the SS plate thru-bolts around the mast penetration. And... handrails, deck organizers, and any other parts that bolt thru.
Your mast penetration does (!) have completely watertight boot, right? (When we acquired our boat that cover had leaked for several years and allowed the leaks to run under the forward part of the headliner and down the teak around the port lights. It took me a while to remove the frozen zipper slide and put eyes on the problem. That covering has been refined a couple times over the decades and no water gets in there now. I have a blog entry showing our current solution.)
Further, does your model have the molded-in recess for winch handles near the spar? Those are notorious for rain leaks on the 38's. All fixable, but the work is a bit tedious.

 

[bsangs]

At your boat's age, it is beyond the 30 (plus or minus) year point for re-bedding ALL deck penetrations. Annecdotal evidence suggests that cabin top leaks can migrate a bit and show up at the edges of the headliner.
Knowing that water has to flow downhill, I would start with re-bedding parts on the top of the cabin and while the work is tedious I suspect the SS plate around the mast penetration. And... handrails, deck organizers, and any other parts that bolt thru.
Your mast penetration does (!) have completely watertight boot, right? (When we acquired our boat that cover had leaked for several years and allowed the leaks to run under the forward part of the headliner and down the teak around the port lights. It took me a while to remove the frozen zipper slide and put eyes on the problem. That covering has been refined a couple times over the decades and no water gets in there now. I have a blog entry showing our current solution.)
Further, does your model have the molded-in recess for winch handles near the spar? Those are notorious for rain leaks on the 38's. All fixable, but the work is a bit tedious.

Hmm, are you referencing the area between the dorade vents in front of the spar when speaking of the "molded in recess for winch handles" Loren? If so, that was completely sealed up by a previous owner. We have winch handle holders attached to the mast though. (Came with them.)

I was focussing on the SS plate around the mast and have been trying to convince myself no, that's not it because of said tediousness. Am planning to take a closer look at it when replacing the mast boot, so guess I'll probably start with that then. With the boat approaching 40 years, sounds like re-bedding the deck organizers and handrails is in my future once it warms up. Thank you.

 

[Loren Beach]

Hmm, are you referencing the area between the dorade vents in front of the spar when speaking of the "molded in recess for winch handles" Loren? If so, that was completely sealed up by a previous owner. We have winch handle holders attached to the mast though. (Came with them.)

Nice to hear that the dorade molding was addressed, and I just recalled that even before our re-fit, I had to re-bed the little SS plate behind our mast that connects thru to the wire inside rigging holds the cabin top stable against turning block loads.
Strictly FWIW, a friend did rebuild the rotting piece of plywood around the cabin top mast opening -- with the spar in place. He raised the top piece and worked from inside. Tedious, yes. That piece of embedded plywood showed a bit of water stain when we had the boat apart, but no loss of strength. I did the "over drill, epoxy fill, and redrill" for all of those holes as part of our project a couple years ago.
The mast penetration SS part and the hold-down SS part is visible on one picture in this link. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/prep-for-non-skid-other-details.890/
I should have taken more pictures....!

 

[Christian Williams]

I brutalized the photo for analysis (exposure, sharpness):

The overhead trim piece of the problem area comes off easily. That exposes the staples that hold the vinyl ceiling, which are typically rusted.

The vinyl can be unstapled to allow exploration under there, and maybe a water path. It's easy enough to staple back down.

With the area exposed for a few feet I'd train a powerful hose on all suspected deck fittings, placing paper towels under the vinyl for evidence collection. Try to make it leak.

I would remove the cosmetic interior covers on the fixed portlights and observe them too under heavy hose. Try to make them leak.

For most of us it's time to re-bed portlights, esp. at first sign of veneer damage. Otherwise put it off but monitor.

 

[jtsai]

Use white chalk, draw lines perpendicular to the suspected water flow paths. After rain or douse boat with water, the chalk line gaps can provide insight to the source of the leak.

 

[frick]

After rebedding just about everything on my E29. I still had a leak.
Discovered it was the rubber gasket are the port lights. I The Capt Creeping Crack Cure to find the leak. It worked for about two year and the 3rd year I filled them again.

Rick

 

[reginaldobaker]

Never done it but in theory food coloring in a dropper bottle could work for finesse stuff.

 

[Nick J]

I had evidence of a similar leak, but never experienced it myself until I removed my dodger to rebed the seahood. I found wood blocks I assume we're used for sliding hatch stops. They had ripped out of their holes and the holes would let water that landed on top of the sliding hatch in. It made it's way above the fixed ports. With the dodger on, water wouldn't land on the hatch, so I didn't see the leak. I fixed it by filling the holes with epoxy when I rebedded the sea hood.


The opening hatch just forward of the sea hood also leaked, but that presented as a puddle just aft of the mast.

 

[bigd14]

Yes check the seahood. I had mystery leaks above the portlight that were solved by rebedding it.

 

[Christian Williams]

Is good point. A seahood isn't designed watertight, it just houses the open sliding hatch.

Mine has drain holes to allow trapped water out, which might clog. (Actually, we had an owner here who sealed them to prevent water getting in, which kinda defeats the drain idea).

So -- any issue under the hood can admit water to the saloon.

 

[bsangs]

Does the sea hood water manifest itself above the aft or forward fixed port? Mine comes from above the forward one. Then runs along the teak trim or curtain track before dropping down. Also, I have a dodger over the sea hood literally all the time, so the sliding hatch never gets wet. Could it still be a possible source in that case?

Oh and I have "flooded" the windows from outside before, and they don't leak (knock wood). The water that comes inside comes from above the window frames.

 

[bigd14]

Does the sea hood water manifest itself above the aft or forward fixed port?

I had water coming from the seahood above both ports. The screws holding the seahood down were simply screwed into the balsa core and water made its way through the core towards the side of the boat and came out through the fiberglass onto the veneer around both ports. The front of the seahood is roughly in line with the forward portlight.

 

[Pete the Cat]

I second the idea that leaks like this can migrate the length of the boat and the only way to conquer it is going to be an effort to rebed everything. Finding a specific leak route can be a hopeless project.. I had major problems with the hatches on my boat that I did not see until I opened them up--some of the self tapping screws holding them down had just augured holes. I filled with epoxy and redrilled . Does not take long to remove, clean and rebed them with butyl tape. The mast can be a bugger to chase down as sometimes the vang hardware will catch and internalize a leak to get around a mast collar. I am recommending putting your energy into rebedding rather than trying to find a specific source.

 

[bigd14]

We also removed, refinished and rebedded the handrails last summer. We found they were only held in place with wood screws and were likely also a source of leaks above the port lights We ended up through bolting them with butyl sealant. Dry boat this winter so far, except for some water coming in the aft dorades. Oh and a one-time mystery leak from the steering pedestal. Hoping I don’t have to take that apart!

 

[bsangs]

We also removed, refinished and rebedded the handrails last summer. We found they were only held in place with wood screws and were likely also a source of leaks above the port lights We ended up through bolting them with butyl sealant. Dry boat this winter so far, except for some water coming in the aft dorades. Oh and a one-time mystery leak from the steering pedestal. Hoping I don’t have to take that apart!

View attachment 49305

Yeah, I half-assed that last season and only replaced the bungs. Planning to do the full job in the next couple months, as I'm feeling that might be the issue. Mind me asking what you refinished them with?

 

[bigd14]

Yeah, I half-assed that last season and only replaced the bungs. Planning to do the full job in the next couple months, as I'm feeling that might be the issue. Mind me asking what you refinished them with?

The handrails were severely weathered and pretty fragile in spots. We sanded them down and soaked them in several coats of epoxy, followed by Epiphanes varnish. I was able to get them installed and bunged and two coats of varnish on the bungs right before the rainy season started but they need a few more coats to be fully protected. The whole process was a bit of an ordeal. I learned that I am not very good at installing bungs…

 

[Nick J]

How much water was getting in through the hand rail screw holes? I assumed the holes wouldn't have an opportunity to accumulated much water since they are on raised sections of the deck mold (at least on the 35-3 and 25+). In contrast, the seahood screw holes sit in a recess where water can pool. I'm wondering If I should move rebedding the hand rail high up on my to-do list.

 

[bigd14]

How much water was getting in through the hand rail screw holes?

I doubt it was much but there was evidence of damp core underneath some of the screws. The pylons on my boat had plywood core in them which was holding the screws (poorly in some cases) and I believe that was just sitting on top of the deck core material. Either way it’s worth sealing them up to prevent any water getting in. But I would prioritize the seahood. I had lots of water getting in for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[gareth harris]

Never done it but in theory food coloring in a dropper bottle could work for finesse stuff.

I have done it and it worked - one colour at each of the likely entry points.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972