Can't lower Harken furling jib

[Vtonian]

I tried taking down the jib for the first time today on my E38 and it seems to be stuck. I'm looking for any thoughts/ideas/info before I get back to it next week.

It's on a Harken Mark III furler. Research suggests either the swivel head is stuck on the foil or the luff tape is stuck in the foil groove. The halyard doesn't appear wrapped, the swivel head appears to be appropriately aligned and the furler otherwise works fine to furl/unfurl the sail. Pulling down on the sail by hand did not budge it more than an inch or so of sail stretch. I could not tell if winching a bit on the halyard moved the swivel head although I did not try unshackling the tack first. There does appear to be a spliced rope loop attached to the lower shackle on the swivel head so maybe someone had issues pulling it down before and added that for extra persuasion, although I haven't been up yet so I can't be certain if that's an intentional loop or possibly some kind of fouling.

I read the manual and the only thing that looks wrong about the installation is they say if the swivel doesn't come within ~4" of the top of the foil, a pendant should be added to the top of the sail so it does. I can add that once I get it down but I don't see how that should be preventing it coming down now.

Elsewhere I've seen reports of the swivel just getting stuck to the foil and some careful tapping should loosen it and get it started going down, along with maybe some warm water and/or some McLube SailKote in the groove. I assume if it's just stuck, once broken loose then gently working it up and down should free it enough to get it all the way down.

I didn't try undoing the tack shackle and seeing if I could get it to move up any, I'll go try that next, although the wind won't be down until Monday or Tuesday. If it goes up at all, maybe I'll try running a line from the tack to a winch and giving it a little persuasion down, see if I can start that working up and down process without having to go up there myself.

Any thoughts?

Thanks much,
Matthew

 

[southofvictor]

One guess looking at your pics is that the halyard might have come off the sheave. It looks a little off center in a couple of your photos. How comfortable are you climbing the mast? That'd be my next step. Go up for a closer look at what’s binding up there.

 

[Christian Williams]

Yeah, my first step would be to try to confirm that the halyard moves. Looks like it could move up a few inches when tack released. I don't see a wrap, either.

Old luff tape can resist moving in the furler groove, and old roller sails are typically hard to pull down on the stay. I would free the tack and apply pressure to raise and lower. A winch, moderate force, telling myself not to overdo it.

Good to confront this at the dock. A sail that won't come down is an underappreciated danger.

 

[ConchyDug]

A drone with a camera is a handy piece of tech for such inspections if you don't wanna go up the mast.

 

[Vtonian]

One guess looking at your pics is that the halyard might have come off the sheave. It looks a little off center in a couple of your photos. How comfortable are you climbing the mast? That'd be my next step. Go up for a closer look at what’s binding up there.

Good point. It's on a buoy so I didn't have a stable platform ahead to get an angle to really see that but I'll go out today and bring it to the dock and check that. Should have thought of it though, I've been involved with a couple of those in the past. Thanks.

 

[Christian Williams]

In today's world the headsail is often not lowered for five years.

My sailmaker points out that the first thing to go up there is the webbing on the shackle. UV rots it. The sail then lowers of its own accord and somebody has to climb the mast to retrieve the halyard. Newer sails, he said, use Dyneema webbing but old sails have Dacron, which wears out.

He also advocates periodic flushing of the roller fittings, top and bottom, with detergent. Atmospheric grit and dirt build up over time. Harken, I recall, now says a bit of lube is OK (not oil). I radically flushed and cleaned my furler drum and top fitting last year and applied some lube. They spun much better and more quietly.

My furler is probably 40 years old, and still operates well. So are the extrusions on the headstay. But even a new sail creates a lot of friction when closing in on full hoist, and pulling it down requires some effort. Dirt is obviously the enemy.

 

[Vtonian]

Yeah, my first step would be to try to confirm that the halyard moves. Looks like it could move up a few inches when tack released. I don't see a wrap, either.

Old luff tape can resist moving in the furler groove, and old roller sails are typically hard to pull down on the stay. I would free the tack and apply pressure to raise and lower. A winch, moderate force, telling myself not to overdo it.

Good to confront this at the dock. A sail that won't come down is an underappreciated danger.

Yes, I think that's the next step, and to get another friendly set of eyes and hands along so I don't have to be at the bow and the winch and dock all simultaneously...
Fortunately, it's easier to make friends with sailors than almost any other subspecies, at least in my experience.

 

[Vtonian]

A drone with a camera is a handy piece of tech for such inspections if you don't wanna go up the mast.

Great idea and that's on my wish list. You wouldn't happen to have a recommendation? Something suitably 'disposable' but also optically adequate for such tasks?

 

[Christian Williams]

Good time to buy a GoPro. They're not expensive, waterproof, and by far the best choice for home sailing movies.

You can haul a GoPro on a stick up the mast with a spare halyard and move it around. Some part of the resulting video will contain what you want to look at. Also works for checking propeller, rudder, other underwater stuff.

 

[Vtonian]

In today's world the headsail is often not lowered for five years.

My sailmaker points out that the first thing to go up there is the webbing on the shackle. UV rots it. The sail then lowers of its own accord and somebody has to climb the mast to retrieve the halyard. Newer sails, he said, use Dyneema webbing but old sails have Dacron, which wears out.

He also advocates periodic flushing of the roller fittings, top and bottom, with detergent. Atmospheric grit and dirt build up over time. Harken, I recall, now says a bit of lube is OK (not oil). I radically flushed and cleaned my furler drum and top fitting last year and applied some lube. They spun much better and more quietly.

My furler is probably 40 years old, and still operates well. So are the extrusions on the headstay. But even a new sail creates a lot of friction when closing in on full hoist, and pulling it down requires some effort. Dirt is obviously the enemy.

I enjoy maintenance chores and fixing things but I stopped enjoying climbing tall things after I quit drinking (I had a tree service in my youth). That said, it's always bugged me so over the past year or so I've accumulated a pretty decent set of tree climbing gear and had been testing it and myself before buying the boat. I guess this is as good an opportunity to see if I can muster what it takes to work aloft again. The good news is, I can let myself down quickly, anytime, so literally no harm in trying.
Good tip about the webbing. Hadn't thought of that. I'm taking the jib down to patch the UV cover and give the sail a thorough inspection.

 

[Vtonian]

Good time to buy a GoPro. They're not expensive, waterproof, and by far the best choice for home sailing movies.

You can haul a GoPro on a stick up the mast with a spare halyard and move it around. Some part of the resulting video will contain what you want to look at. Also works for checking propeller, rudder, other underwater stuff.

Brilliant! Thanks.

 

[Christian Williams]

A "Jaws Flex Clamp" for GoPro works well on a boathook, for hoisting.

Review here.

 

[ConchyDug]

For the drone I use an older DJI Spark, lots of options on the table for drones though. I'd go with a "cheaper" drone but the tech is pretty reliable, I haven't lost one.

Riggers use them for quick assessments as well as surveyors and home inspectors. These photos are compressed for uploading so not great resolution but the original ones are clear enough to see cotter pins from that distance. You could hoist a GoPro on a stick but that sounds like an exercise in futility.
My older Hood unit foil track was 8mm and my new Schaefer is 5mm. Just so you are aware that different size luff tapes/foil tracks exist. When you get it down before hoisting it back up apply a dry lube on it, don't bother with Mclube it's just rebadged Teflon dry lube, DuPont sells a big can for like $10 or something. If the swivels are racheting flush with water if they are still rough I'd rebuild. You can use quickdrop but I think that's geared more towards Harken travelers and it's just a band-aid. Torlon balls have a life limit and get flat spots. Oh another thing I noticed is that's a pretty fat splice on that halyard and double check you are opening the clutch completely just thinking out loud. Good luck!

Now for GoPros... Christian you need to get a GoPro Max 360 for your next video, they are amazing for situational awareness. Sailing videos shot with them are amazing, great for reviewing boat handling technique. We used one on the VXone last summer, I was blown away with the 360° view. We plan to get one for the Melges 15 soon. Screenshot of the VX going plaid.

 

[Kenneth K]

I think you have it narrowed down the likely culprits:

1. Halyard stuck in sheave-box/masthead;

2. Head swivel stuck on foil--this is unlikely unless jammed by debris -or- if one of the screw connectors that holds the foils together is protruding from the foil. This would prevent the slider from moving below the screw, but would not present as a "frozen" slider unless the protruding screw is jammed inside the slider. Also, it looks unlikely that there would be a screw connector in that location on the foil. Older versions used roll-pins instead of screws to fasten the foil sections together;

3. Luff tape stuck in foil groove. This could just be from dirt buildup and friction since the sail hasn't been moved in awhile. Like you suggest, alternately working the halyard up and tack down could start to free the jammed tape. Alternatively, the foil has joints every 7 feet or so along its length (this is where the connector screws from are located). If the sail luff, or part of the tape, got jammed in one of these joints, that could stop the sail from lowering. Alternately raising/lowering the sail a few inches while pulling it over to port or starboard may allow it to lower without catching on the joint.

 

[Loren Beach]

In 2021, when our spar was down as part of the re-fit, we replaced all the sheaves with new ones from Zephyr, and I would NOT want to remove those axels and sheaves while the spar was up. A bad idea for several reasons. If a halyard has jumped the sheave and jammed, it will do it again. Does this boat still have the 80's wire-to-rope halyards? (I replaced all of ours in the 90's when I found a meathook in a halyard, and changed to 5/16" T-900 fabric halyards.)

 

[Vtonian]

@ConchyDug:
Great input, thanks. I appreciate hearing that less expensive drones can be useful, I'll continue analyzing that market. I do think I will prioritize a GoPro though, just because it can also do underwater duties. On my list is diving gear for maintenance down under and a GoPro would tell me when it's time.
The tip on McLube vs Dow is also appreciated, I filled up a cart with all the branded lubes and had to pause on that. Those guys are sharks. I'd wondered about the balls too.
I made another quick trip out today with more optical aids, still too windy to bring it to the dock, and although I couldn't see anything more from the deck that might be fouled, I did notice from other angles that the thickness of the halyard spice was mucho grande. Good eyes, I hadn't noticed that from my own photos.
I've decided to use the next few days to work on my climbing gear/skills/fears in the back yard so when the weather improves next week I'll be ready try a scamper up.

@KennethK:
I read about the screws in the foils and agree, it doesn't seem likely there would be one at that location but on an older boat, who knows. I am so looking forward to familiarizing myself with every inch of this ship.

 

[Vtonian]

In 2021, when our spar was down as part of the re-fit, we replaced all the sheaves with new ones from Zephyr, and I would NOT want to remove those axels and sheaves while the spar was up. A bad idea for several reasons. If a halyard has jumped the sheave and jammed, it will do it again. Does this boat still have the 80's wire-to-rope halyards? (I replaced all of ours in the 90's when I found a meathook in a halyard, and changed to 5/16" T-900 fabric halyards.)

The PO replaced all the halyards with Dyneema but I don't know yet what else, if anything, was done up there. I agree the sheaves and hood are more sensitive than I used to believe, I had one break on my old Thunderbird and helped jury rig a fix for another one damaged from skying a halyard, so I no longer believe everything aloft is bulletproof, but it really doesn't look like it's jumped or jammed, from the deck anyway with decent 8x optics.
I also read the thread about splice that failed for the guy down in Australia (I think it was) so had been thinking I *really* wanted to get a good look at everything up there before sailing season starts in earnest.

 

[toddster]

My experience so far is that unless something is radically wrong, drones don’t really give a clear enough picture. You need a reliable system to climb up to the masthead, so just bite the bullet and get up there. I’ve used the ATN mastclimber on both the 29 and the 42. Eventually I added mast steps to the 29, which makes popping up to inspect something a trivial thing. A couple of months ago, in San Diego, I went up the 42’s mast with the ATN 11 times! (Re-wiring) Three times a day was my limit. Mast steps are well worth it.

 

[Vtonian]

My experience so far is that unless something is radically wrong, drones don’t really give a clear enough picture. You need a reliable system to climb up to the masthead, so just bite the bullet and get up there. I’ve used the ATN mastclimber on both the 29 and the 42. Eventually I added mast steps to the 29, which makes popping up to inspect something a trivial thing. A couple of months ago, in San Diego, I went up the 42’s mast with the ATN 11 times! (Re-wiring) Three times a day was my limit. Mast steps are well worth it.

Yep, I've been convinced, hands on up there may solve it first trip but should least answer the question of what the fix will require.

Got my climbing gear out today and went through it all and tested it indoors up to the barn rafters but missed the window to try an outdoor ascent. I use a setup based on this kind of gear:

It's still a workout, about like climbing a ladder but it's safe, comfortable and lets me bail out quickly, any time, which is important to me. Getting stuck at height waiting around for someone else to do something is what I hate most.

I also ascend on a climbing line, which in this case will be hoist by the spinnaker halyard, so the foot and knee ascenders don't grab on any of the rigging, and also still lets someone on deck lower you if you become unconscious.

I can also carry a backup descender, and an adjustable lanyard to attach myself onto the mast or rigging for positioning and additional safety. I can have the deck person trail me up with the main halyard, taking up slack in the event the primary line or ascension device fails. I will also have the kitchen sink attached to my climbing saddle.

It's overkill and expensive for just climbing a mast but I have other reasons to own it.

 

[Puget sailor]

Not to be insulting because I made this mistake last year myself. Are you 100% sure you’re releasing the right line and not the spinnaker halyard or something?!