Visiting a 1987 E35 soon - engine question.

[bertboyer]

Hello all,

I posted my visit on a couple boats in the past and received many helpful comments. My search continues and I will be visiting this E35 in Anacortes, WA this coming Thursday:

35' Ericson MK III - boats - by owner - marine sale - craigslist

Bruce King classic deep draft sailboat with spade rudder. Excellent condition, ready to set sail. LOA 35'6. Displacement 13,000. Draft 6'2. Beam 11'4. Engine Universal M-25XP. 40 gal. fuel. 75 gal....

skagit.craigslist.org

The boat is currently on the hard and I have spoken to the owner. He mentioned one concerning thing to me that I'd appreciate your feedback on before my visit if possible. He said that the engine had 'some intermittent starting issues and he addressed them by adjusting the valves.' Note that the engine has about 3,000 hours. He also mentioned that the autopilot needs service and the depth sounder may need replacing. Other things about the boat look encouraging to me.

As I am still new to all of this, I'd really appreciate your thoughts on the engine and whether a compression test and oil testing might be in order. Any other comments you might have are most welcome as many members on this forum see things I am oblivious to or still learning about. He did say the standing rigging was 12-15 yrs old, no delamination or soft spots, new portlights and saloon hatch, and some 'pin spots' on the bottom I'll have a look at.

If things look good, I was definitely planning on getting a survey done before purchasing.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions you may have.

Bert

 

[Frank Langer]

Bert,
My 1984 boat has 3,468 engine hours, runs perfectly, and I'm told it can run many more engine hours before any serious issues might be expected. I do regular oil changes, periodic valve adjustments and regular engine checks, so 3,000 hours wouldn't worry me if it's been maintained.
Intermittent start problems can be hard to diagnose. In my case it was a faulty solenoid on the starter, which I had rebuilt for about $100 several years ago and have not had any start problems since.
A mechanical inspection might be helpful.
Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

I know little about valve adjustment (never have done it, don't know the symptoms or the urgency).

But when you search this joint, there is often a rational discussion. Oh, and 14 years ago? Frank started it.

Valve adjustment: need help to decide, please

Hi, I am trying to ensure that I am doing all the maintenance needed to maintain my Universal 5416 diesel engine. The engine has 875 hours on it, but it was rebuilt at about 250 hours due to a major overheating by a previous owner. I have had it since 570 hours, and have been religious...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[bertboyer]

Thank you both. However, I should have clarified that my main concern with the intermittent starting issues is whether it could be a sign of something far worse to come sooner rather than later. If a valve adjustment is the likely fix, then perhaps it is not as concerning as I originally thought.

As you have suggested before that a marine survey is a good educational investment, perhaps a mechanical inspection might be an equally valuable investment for someone like me...or at least give me a little bit of comfort before diving in further.

 

[Frank Langer]

If you're concerned about the engine, a mechanical inspection that includes an oil analysis and compression test might give you enough information to address that concern.
If you're not able to arrange that, I would suggest trying to start the engine when it's cold (but using the glow plug as normal), watching the colour and amount of any smoke, watching if the engine is running smoothly, can it reach proper cruising speed, etc. to see if it seems ok.
Others may have additional suggestions.
Frank

 

[Cory B]

Hi Bert,

I'd consider getting an engine survey (separate from boat survey) if you are serious about the boat - it can pay for itself. For example, when we bought our boat, the engine supposedly had an oil leak. Engine survey determined it was actually just the wrong dip stick was installed which didn't seal properly. Easy fix, and no oil more oil leaks!

If its a solenoid/starter issue, I'd think it should be something a qualified mechanic could diagnose pretty quickly.

Adjusting valves is a DIY item if you want it to be. I did ours a few years ago and it made a noticeable difference in reducing engine vibrations - but no difference with regards to starting, which has never been a problem for us.

Our motor has nearly 3K hours on it, and (knock on wood) is going strong.

 

[Loren Beach]

As you have suggested before that a marine survey is a good educational investment, perhaps a mechanical inspection might be an equally valuable investment for someone like me...or at least give me a little bit of comfort before diving in further.

Having never owned an inboard diesel sailboat when buying ours, I had a hull survey and a separate engine survey done. Both paid for them selves with change left over. I learned good info from both guys while watching them work, too, Good surveyors like sharing knowledge and educating owners / buyers. (IMHO, anyway.)

 

[Christian Williams]

intermittent starting issues

We all have or had have. Typically not significant after troubleshooting. Also, each engine has eccentricities depending on outside temp, time not used, and owner worry. Technique can be important, and some engines require 1 minute of glow time and others none at all, sometimes, and the common thread is sometimes, sometimes, sometimes.

Most common issue with small diesels is owner worry. And it's hardest to fix.

Engine inspection: yes. And be there, with questions.

 

[bertboyer]

Excellent advice. Engine inspection it is...and I'm still working on pre-owner worry! Hoping to graduate to manageable owner worry in the coming year or so

Thanks everyone. If you see anything else worrisome about this vessel, please let me know before Thursday and I'll try to check it out and report back.

 

[Marlin Prowell]

Intermittent starting issues

I can interpret this as perhaps meaning “sometimes the starter motor won’t run” or perhaps “the starter motor turns the engine over, but the engine won’t start”. The former is a problem is something many of us have dealt with. Search “trailer plug” in this forum for many, many posts about this. The wiring from the engine to the control panel then back to the starter solenoid fails in many different ways after many years. Find out from the owner which version of “intermittent starting issues” is the problem. I know that the current owner mentioned adjusting the valves, but faulty wiring is a very well known problem with these engines.

 

[bertboyer]

Find out from the owner which version of “intermittent starting issues” is the problem.

Will do. Thank you!

 

[Kenneth K]

Look at photos #2 & #9 of the Craigslist ad. Looks like sidewall and or cabin-top/headliner water damage on the fwd starboard side.

Sidewall damage (pic#2) is usually mostly cosmetic if from leaky window/ports, but may be a sign of cabintop/core damage if coming from above.

Cabin-top/headliner damage is usually from leaky cabin-top hardware and can readily lead to core damage if not addressed in time.

Check the cushions and other cabinetry below these area to look for signs of long-term leaks.

At $45K, I think this boat is priced for near-perfection, so I'd look closely at any/all potential problem areas.

 

[Loren Beach]

One more thing.... Unlike when we bought our used boat in '94, when cuneiform on wet clay was in vogue, nowadays I would get permission from the surveyor to observe him/her and video parts of the process with my iPhone. There is a lot of important trivia to absorb, during a survey. Modern smart phones have provision for recording audio, too, on the fly.

 

[bertboyer]

Looks like sidewall and or cabin-top/headliner water damage on the fwd starboard side.

Thank you Ken. I missed that in the pictures but will definitely look further. Great suggestion to check the cabinets and cushions below!

 

[bertboyer]

I would get permission from the surveyor to observe him/her and video parts of the process

Great suggestion Loren. The surveyor I have contacted was highly recommended by Alison Mazon (Stephen Berg from Anacortes). I called him and he was extremely nice and encouraged me to attend any survey with him. I'll ask for permission to video some things if we get to a survey!

 

[Kenneth K]

Thank you Ken. I missed that in the pictures but will definitely look further. Great suggestion to check the cabinets and cushions below!

You bet. As I looked again, it looks like the water damage runs further down the bulkhead...

 

[bertboyer]

water damage runs further down the bulkhead...

I did see that one and also noticed staining on the sole even further down. I wonder if they are all related? I have looked at only a handful of Ericson's but there seems to be a number of them with sole damage right at the bulkhead on the starboard side.

Is this something a good surveyor should be able to tell me more about? I will definitely look at it closely, but am not sure what more I can do except observe and ask about it. Could these stains have resulted from an older portlight leak or is it too far forward? The owner mentioned that he replaced 4 portlights. Thanks again for sharing your observations!

 

[Kenneth K]

Is this something a good surveyor should be able to tell me more about?

It depends. In these later Ericsons, the wooden bulkheads are mostly decorative--they are room dividers, so it might not alarm a surveyor. In earlier models, those wooden bulkheads anchored the side-shroud loads, so they were structural members. Later models, like this boat, use tie-rods to anchor shroud loads to the TAFG. Cabin-top leaks may become structural issues. I'd try to get the surveyor to go on record differentiating between cosmetic and structural damages that might exist for each problem area.

I will definitely look at it closely, but am not sure what more I can do except observe and ask about it.

You can lower your offering price. Any existing damage translates directly into a repair costs to you in terms of time, money or both.

Could these stains have resulted from an older portlight leak or is it too far forward? The owner mentioned that he replaced 4 portlights. Thanks again for sharing your observations!

If damage is above the portlight, it's not a port-light problem. Damage below, or along side a portlight could be from the portlight, or, it could still be from something up higher (like the cabin-top). Also, once water gets behind a surface, it can travel several feet laterally before it reappears as damage.

 

[Christian Williams]

I would look at the vent for the heater--the Charlie Noble on deck. This may have been a factory option, since the ceiling surround looks Ericson style. The install requires a big hole in the deck for the vent, and I think there's discoloration on the ceiling vinyl leading downhill. Perhaps the veneer damage below can be traced to a leak there.

Inspect the deck around the Charlie Noble for softness, which would suggest that the core there is wet. Would not stop me from interest in the boat, but I'd want to know what is going on because wet balsa core requires a messy intervention.

 

[bertboyer]

I would look at the vent for the heater--the Charlie Noble on deck. This may have been a factory option, since the ceiling surround looks Ericson style. The install requires a big hole in the deck for the vent, and I think there's discoloration on the ceiling vinyl leading downhill. Perhaps the veneer damage below can be traced to a leak there.

Inspect the deck around the Charlie Noble for softness, which would suggest that the core there is wet

If damage is above the portlight, it's not a port-light problem. Damage below, or along side a portlight could be from the portlight, or, it could still be from something up higher (like the cabin-top). Also, once water gets behind a surface, it can travel several feet laterally before it reappears as damage.

Thank you Ken and Christian. I will do what I can to inspect from the vent down through the cabin. I can tap (sound) the deck for softness but won't have a moisture meter. If we get to a surveyor, you can bet I will have a lot of questions for them around this area.

Much appreciated!
Bert