Visiting a 1987 E35 soon - engine question.

[Prairie Schooner]

You bet. As I looked again, it looks like the water damage runs further down the bulkhead...
View attachment 50139

Good catch on these, Ken. And good follow-up insights all around. The dorade box is a common fail point on these, too. Sealing the inside of that and potting and rebedding the dorade guard were year one projects on our boat.

 

[bertboyer]

The dorade box is a common fail point on these, too

Added to the inspection list, Thanks Jeff!

 

[AlanO]

We had intermittent starter issues our first summer that was very frustrating. It turned out to be corrosion on the starter ground. All it required was cleaning up the ring connector and we have had no problems since.

 

[bertboyer]

Intermittent starting issues

I can interpret this as perhaps meaning “sometimes the starter motor won’t run” or perhaps “the starter motor turns the engine over, but the engine won’t start”. The former is a problem is something many of us have dealt with. Search “trailer plug” in this forum for many, many posts about this. The wiring from the engine to the control panel then back to the starter solenoid fails in many different ways after many years. Find out from the owner which version of “intermittent starting issues” is the problem. I know that the current owner mentioned adjusting the valves, but faulty wiring is a very well known problem with these engines.

Thank you Marlin. Indeed there are many "intermittent starting" posts that I found searching "trailer plug". I'm reading through them now. I can ask about some of those things, but I don't have the skills to test several of the issues mentioned, or the time during my initial inspection visit. Nevertheless, I could ask the owner about some of the things mentioned in the thread started by Frank Langer back in 2016. Very helpful.

The more I search the EY.o site, the more amazed I am at the phenomenal curation of information on this site. Thank you all for this amazing resource that is better than any others I've seen while casually considering other boat manufacturers. People often suggest I broaden my search beyond Ericson's and this forum is why I don't want any boat other than an Ericson! So my search continues...

Best,
Bert

 

[Christian Williams]

The information here is primarily about boats now 40 or 50 years old, and I agree it's remarkable how members have encountered just about everything that can wear out, sourced the answer, and usually fixed it themselves. There is no other source of such specific experience.

It was always the accumulated knowledge of a good mechanic that made him admired, and everybody knew the value of apprenticeship in the trades. Only the old guys had seen it all, and you couldn't beat them with books. But the learning model changed with the engines.

It seems to me that we here are now apprentices of a sort, learning not from old geezers in coveralls but from long repetitive threads in which fellow amateurs groped toward solutions and eventually found them over the course of 21 years.

 

[bertboyer]

The information here is primarily about boats now 40 or 50 years old, and I agree it's remarkable how members have encountered just about everything that can wear out, sourced the answer, and usually fixed it themselves. There is no other source of such specific experience.

It was always the accumulated knowledge of a good mechanic that made him admired, and everybody knew the value of apprenticeship in the trades. Only the old guys had seen it all, and you couldn't beat them with books. But the learning model changed with the engines.

It seems to me that we here are now apprentices of a sort, learning not from old geezers in coveralls but from long repetitive threads in which fellow amateurs groped toward solutions and eventually found them over the course of 21 years.

Precisely!

 

[bertboyer]

Quick visit update:

We saw "Borrowed Time" today in Anacortes. She looks really nice to us. I inspected the leak area at the top of the starboard bulkhead and on the deck above. The owner said it was coming from the plate to the mast pulpit and he caulked it and it stopped. I tapped all around this area on the deck and could not hear any difference in tapping. No sign of soft deck. Nothing around the Charlie Noble to suggest a leak from there.


The red line in the picture below was the direction of the flow. No damage to cushions and nothing wet or soft in the veneer that I could tell. What looks like a stain in the vinyl around the vent is just a shadow. No staining there. It seems to have entered just above the veneer.


The bottom looks great. Gelcoat needs buffing. Bumped the transom at a dock, Engine intermittent starting was said to be fixed by changing out battery connectors.



Prop was not loose. A few more pics attached. Overall good impression.

 

[peaman]

I am disturbed by the image "Leak source.jpg" as the PO tried to stop a leak by caulking from the outside. I am similarly disturbed by what's shown at the headliner in "leak starboard bulkhead.jpg". I wonder if the boat is worth no more than $38k to $40k versus the asking $44.5k? Certainly the boat has the good lineage of an Ericson, but what else has been done poorly, in the name of expedience? These boats do commonly show signs of aging, but their value can be maintained only with appropriate attention in upgrades as well as basic maintenance.

 

[Loren Beach]

We saw "Borrowed Time" today in Anacortes. She looks really nice to us. I inspected the leak area at the top of the starboard bulkhead and on the deck above. The owner said it was coming from the plate to the mast pulpit and he caulked it and it stopped. I tapped all around this area on the deck and could not hear any difference in tapping. No sign of soft deck. Nothing around the Charlie Noble to suggest a leak from there.

A coment about "caulking" a leak. Many many owners try to stop leaks by lathering on sealant around the offending fitting on the outside. Usually multiple attempts. In the long run it is far better to just remove and re-bed the fitting, which stops the seep/leak for another 20 years.
If the deck and cabin top are solid now, you should adjust the bid price by the hours to re-bed all 100% of the deck fittings/tracks/etc. Most any competent yard can quote a ball park labor estimate. This was deferred maintenance that should have been done and the owner saved the time/money and now that he's selling needs to recognize this non-expenditure of his money.
(That's my opinion, and worth .02 on some days...)

And, mea culpa.... on our prior boat I also sealed the cabin fixed ports around the outside. I got away with it because the cabin side was solid FRP. Sometimes luck saves stupidity. In thin defense that was my first ever "big" sailboat with port lights. After owning it for a decade, I started learning about stuff like this.

ps: love the feathering prop in your picture. Nowadays one of those for our boat would cost about 3K.

 

[Kenneth K]

I tend to have a suspicious streak anyway, but I'd look into this...

- It COULD be that the leaks WERE caused by the mast collar (pulpit?), but this is a difficult place to get to and properly re-bed.

- Based on this owners other "fixes" (the stern and the dorade guard), I wouldn't put much faith in his ability to fix a leak at the mast even if he did properly identify it as the source of the leak.

- Seems the caulk-smeared dorade guard directly above the damaged areas is at least as likely to be the leak source as the mast. But, it's not likely that his caulk job here would have stopped the leak.

- An owner who slaps caulk on the oustside
of leaky hardware is something that might be expected on an old boat. One who might lie about a problem being fixed is a much bigger issue.

I'd tell him you want to run a garden hose over the mast collar and the dorade guard for 15 mins each. If he truly fixed the leak(s), he has no reason to say no.

 

[Nick J]

This boat has a lot of good things and it looks like you can use it from day one, but there are also way too many negatives to be priced at the top of the market.

In addition to the leak at the bulkhead and engine problems, there's outdated electronics, poor gel coat repair (best case, it may be structural), the sole is in rough shape, and the rigging needs to be replaced. Even the new head sail is really big for the boat and won't be that much fun to manage. The prop and spinnaker are nice touches. There just doesn't seem to be too many things you can hang your hat on while you're fixing the other items and enjoying the boat.

If this was priced around $25k, the equation would be different, but it's not and the gap may be too large to make up in negotiations. In another 6 months it may be priced at a point that makes more sense.

Here's another one similarly priced, but with a newer engine (no affiliation)

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/nvn/boa/d/madeira-park-ericson-35/7740328683.html

 

[Prairie Schooner]

You might start price discussions by gently asking how they arrived at the price.
The boat Nick just pinged has got some fine points.

 

[Christian Williams]

The current owner has not been a good steward. Discount most of what he says and lean on a good surveyor.

 

[bertboyer]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your comments and evaluation of this boat. As a newbie, and only having looked at 4 Ericson's so far, I still have a lot to learn from you! I wanted to respond to a few of your comments and welcome further discussion from you or others reading this thread.

Loren: You mentioned that...you should adjust the bid price by the hours to re-bed all 100% of the deck fittings/tracks/etc. Most any competent yard can quote a ball park labor estimate. Getting an estimate is a great idea. Perhaps I could give you a call when I return to Portland to discuss. Or if others know of a competent yard anywhere between Bellingham and Port Townsend, I would be happy to call them. I also wanted to note that the other deck fittings looked to be in nice condition. Better than any of the previous boats I have visited. No rust, very firm seatings. Not sure how else I could personally evaluate them. I welcome suggestions.

Ken: You mentioned...I'd tell him you want to run a garden hose over the mast collar and the dorade guard for 15 mins each. If he truly fixed the leak(s), he has no reason to say no. I like the idea, but the boat is on the hard in the middle of a big yard. Is that something that is generally possible to ask for and accomplish before or during a survey?

Nick: You mentioned...the sole is in rough shape, and the rigging needs to be replaced. Even the new head sail is really big for the boat and won't be that much fun to manage. The sole and rigging seemed in very good shape in comparison to other boats I have looked at thus far. Some priced in the $30K range needed a complete replacement of the sole and the owners had already purchased the teak. All the other boats in this price range had outdated electronics, leaky portlights that were duct taped, rusty rigging and perhaps many other issues that I never realized as I didn't get to the point of a survey. I'd like to learn more about the very large genoa. I have heard that is a fine sail and it appeared to be in great condition. Is it just too large for this size boat? Thanks also for the link. I indeed have seen that boat but it is very far north on Vancouver Island and would be hard to get to in a days travel and perhaps complicated to deliver to the Washington coast and also deal with customs.

Overall, my impression is that this boat had the least visible problems that I could identify and it looked quite clean to me..for a 37 year old boat...other than the bulkhead leak. Similar vessels in the $28-32K range had much more deferred maintenance and needed a lot more attention than this boat (to my eyes), but I agree with you all regarding the caulking..which I have seen done on other boats I visited. I would definitely get a survey and engine inspection if I move forward. Still trying to decide how to proceed, so all of your comments have been very helpful to me!

Bert

 

[bigd14]

perhaps complicated to deliver to the Washington coast and also deal with customs

I wouldn’t let that deter you. I had my 30+ delivered to the US from Canada. I used these guys for documentation.https://www.marinedocservice.com/

Super easy process. I had to have someone deliver the boat to the US, I couldn’t pick it up in Canada, not sure that is still a requirement. The broker delivered (for a fee) the boat from Vancouver to Pt Robert’s where I picked it up. We moored it in Blaine for a couple weeks then disassembled it and had it trucked to Portland.

 

[Puget sailor]

I’d expect a seller offering a boat with visible interior water damage other than absolutely minimal is expecting some price negotiating. I agree that it’s priced to perfection at asking price.

If it’s on the hard, it will be more challenging to asses the engine, but it can be done by feeding water into the raw water intake and running it on the hard.

As for rebedding deck fittings, I suspect anyone on this forum has either redone theirs or worries at least a little about it. Can’t me in the latter category. The cost to have it done by a yard might surprisingly high, since even accessing them from below can be a hard to predict for a yard. Most can be got too, but it’s a process.

I’d also suggest getting a good look at the sails. I bought my 1985 32-3 as a bit of a pandemic impulse purchase. Knowing it was not perfect, but also not bad, I consciously overlooked the moldy and heavily repaired mainsail of the which I’ve subsequently replaced with a new one. Badly needed.

Standing rigging is another topic. 15 year old will often be considered due for replacement, but in Puget Sound, if that’s where it’s been, I’d be thrilled to have 15 year old rigging! It’s not that warm or salty here, and it often doesn’t blow that hard either. I believe mine to be original 1985 and it’s high on my list to replace. A question to ask: is there any documentation or records on the rigging replacement. Also good to investigate the condition of the u-bolts that the turnbuckles attach to through the deck. They’ve been known to develop cracks on the underside of the u- bend above decks, according to the forum. Mine seem fine though. But I’d want to replace them when I replace my standing rigging.

Dated electronics likely par for the course. Mine are. They still work, and it’s taught me that gps and autopilot and wind instruments are amenites I’d never go without, and having them offers a chance to figure out what works well and what might be improved upon.

As for price, I don’t think a 15% less than asking offer for any boat is an insult to a seller, and 20% is not crazy either, even for a boat in really good shape unless it’s priced very low. 34k offer would not be outta line here. Maybe even less. Seems like the market for boats, bikes, cars, everything that’s not real estate, has really eased since the pandemic.

 

[Kenneth K]

I inspected the leak area at the top of the starboard bulkhead and on the deck above. The owner said it was coming from the plate to the mast pulpit and he caulked it and it stopped.

Just to be sure we're on the same page:

The picture you show:

is the "Dorade Guard Rail". It keeps jib sheets from getting caught on the raised dorade vent. It has nothing to do with the mast, though they are often placed a few feet ahead of the mast.

Dorade Guard:


I've never heard of the term "mast pulpit." There is a mast collar, at the base of the mast, that holds hardware for the mast's running rigging. Mast Collar:


Again, I just find it doubtful that that lone caulked fitting shown in your picture caused all that damage, or that his poor caulking job would have fixed anything. If a dorade guard rail base is leaking, it's usually the center one that leaks, because this one straddles the deck's non-skid surface. I had just this type of leak on my boat, but my two side-mounted bases were rock solid.


Or, many boats have molded-in winch holders in the dorade body. Most owners have had to seals these up due to leaks. Or, the mast collar, (shown above) or the Charile Noble would also be likely sources for leaks in that area. My hunch is he's trying to distract you about the origin of the real leak with $3 worth of caulk. So, of course, a garden-hose test of that caulked fitting would prove nothing if it's not the real source of the leak.

 

[bertboyer]

As for price, I don’t think a 15% less than asking offer for any boat is an insult to a seller, and 20% is not crazy either, even for a boat in really good shape unless it’s priced very low. 34k offer would not be outta line here. Maybe even less. Seems like the market for boats, bikes, cars, everything that’s not real estate, has really eased since the pandemic.

Thanks very much for your comments as they are very helpful to me. I am still considering this boat, just pausing to take in the helpful comments of others and reconsider next steps. The current owner has had it only 4 years. Not sure where it was before Anacortes. I'm also thinking where I would put the boat as all the local marinas seem to have a 2-3 yr wait list.

 

[bertboyer]

Just to be sure we're on the same page:

Hi Ken,

Thank you and apologies for my newbie incorrect terminology. I wasn't positive what it was called!

Yes. I meant the dorade guard rail. Here is another picture I took of the full dorade guard tail and it is the one on the starboard side next to the Charlie Noble that has the caulk around the base.

Your comments and others about this caulking have given me pause to reconsider making an offer. Unless a marine survey could determine the cause of the leak, I'm not sure how to proceed, so I'm sleeping on it.
Thanks again!
Bert

 

[Nick J]

At this price, I would expect at least on major system or item to be in a state you can rely on and not have to worry about for a long time. It's important to look at this from a "when will it need to be addressed" standpoint instead of in comparison to other boats you've looked at. For example, a new professional epoxy barrier coat, a new or very well maintained engine, a great set of sails, new rigging, etc. Every boat of this vintage is going to require a lot of work. the goal is to add to an already well maintained boat.

Sail - 140% is a huge sail that's going to overlap the mast by quite a bit. every time you tack, you're going to have to drag that overlap around the mast. Once it's over, it's going to require more force to bring it in. The additional 20% overlap in comparison to a 120 doesn't provide that much benefit and could actually slow you down if it results in excessive heel. My pervious boat had an old laminate 150, a 130, and a 100. I threw the 150 away, used the 130 until the stitching fell apart, and ended up with the 100. The 100 was by far my favorite sail. I didn't see a noticeable difference in performance and it was so much more enjoyable to use. At the end of the day, a new sail that doesn't perform how you would like isn't that much better than an old sail because you're still going to want to replace it.

With the last photo of they dorade box, I'd guess the leak is from their and it hasn't been addressed well. The construction of these dorade boxes from the factory is one of the boat's week points. It essentially exposed the core to moisture. There's quite a bit of conversation on here about the issue and how to fix it. having a cushion over the storage box shows the owner suspects the issue but hasn't done the necessary steps to address it which would put a lot of doubt in my mind when looking at everything else on the boat.

Everything in the pictures you've shown is fixable and there's a ton of help on here to guide you through each project. The boat is also in a condition where you can sail it today which is a major positive. I just think a person in your position would be better off waiting for a better boat to come along that will allow you to be further ahead on the maintenance process.

To give a little context and put my arm chair comments into perspective, Our 35-3 was in worse shape then the boat you're looking at. Although I've done a tone of work, I still haven't addressed the chain locker leak, replaced the rigging, purchased new sails, or addressed the steering, but our starting point was $12.5k.

There's a lot of boats on the market that are in much better shape and would provide a better starting point. My dock neighbor just but his Pearson 36 for sale and it's an excellent example of a well maintained boat (I don't really know the owner, but I've seen him maintain and use the boat over the last 4 years):

https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/boa/d/everett-pearson-36-sailboat/7751518987.html