Alternator

Navman

Member III
I know alternators have been covered as I have read most of the blogs. My question is this, I have 440 amp hrs using 4, 110 aph AGM’s. I need to replace my old alternator. I never felt that the alternator was able to fully charge the battery bank after I installed them. Does anyone know what the original alternator make was as there are NO identifying marks or labels. What manufacturer do you all recommend keeping budget in mind? What is the recommended alternator output to efficiently charge my batteries? What system upgrades would be absolutely necessary? Is there any way my recently installed Sterling Pro Battery charger can be of use in regulating the flow? I am a neophyte where it comes to electrical and if it only Main Sails detailed instructions for the charger installation which enabled me to to it properly. Thanks in advance for your collective patience and answers.
Don Moran AKA, Navman
1986 E-38
The Optimist II
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
FWIW, my '88 boat with a Universal M25XP always had a Motorola alternator, albeit a 50 amp version. I was told by a local alternator shop that they could reconfigure it for external regulation any time. My choice, and I left it "stock."
For a litany of reasons (none related to charging) I changed the whole drive train over to a new Betamarine25, in 2018, with a 70 amp alternator. I am still using prehistoric wet batteries, so have zero info about the how-to for all of the other changes needed for supporting modern battery chemistries. I do believe that you are right to approach this as a "systems" upgrade.
Please do keep us informed, maybe providing some blog pix and on going narrative.
Good luck!
 

Dave G.

1984 E30+ (SOLD)
This is a good read to figure out requirements. General rule is if you go bigger than a 90-100A unit you will also have to change your belt and pulleys. Always a trade off of some degree unless budget is no concern.

 

Pete the Cat

Sustaining Member
I carry 440 AH in my Tartan and had a 105 amp alternator with a smart regulator in my international cruising years. The alternator size was overkill for the most part. I now have an 80ah alterntor (I carry a spare) and it works fine--I generally recharge every second day if I am not operating the engine otherwise. I am not in the tropics and I am only out for a week at a time, but I am not sure that makes a difference. My daily use is about 80ah a day for reefer, radios, diesel heater, instruments, etc. . What I learned is that I generally run the motor when operating the windlass and motoring in and out of anchorages so I am not going long times without charging. My battery monitor and external regulator taught me about this. You see, unless you dump 200 Ah of those batteries daily and want to recharge them daily (and even then you are in for a very long engine running with any smart regulator) you will find that smart regulators (particularly if they have heat sensors on the batteries or on the alternator, or both), will start to shut down the alternator's output to save the batteries (it is all about "temperature and the battery acceptance rates" see Nigel Calder for the details) from overheating and the alternator from burning up. Given the heat environment of most installations, any alternator with a smart regulator is going to run a very short amount of time at max amp output--so imho there is little reason to put a bigger than a 105a alternator--even then it is going run full on for only a matter of minute is most installations before the regulator backs it off to save you from a conflagration.. This is just another place where "bigger and more is better" doesn't actually seem to work out in the real world. Maine Sail's article is very good and I think he acknowledges the heat environment issue situation somewhere in the text, but he was always trying to teach folks "how to do" and does not tell you how to cruise. While I found him a bit compulsive on some issues, and disagree on a couple, his site is one of the best "how to" for boats on the internet. My personal view is that I have massive overkill of electrical capacity these days with 440 ah. I intend to scale back because I am carrying a lot of battery weight I don't use. I don't have refrigeration (the energy hog on my Tartan) on my Ericson, I use a portable refrigeration unit for smaller amounts of stuff and tiny energy consumption, and do coastal and overnight stuff and get along quite nicely with just 240 ah of batteries and the old 50A Motorola (I had it rebuilt) that came with it. I have a smart regulator I could install, but wonder if it would only slow down the recharging schedule (it surely "saves" the life of the batteries, but I am not sure I care--they are 5 years old, cheap to replace, and seem fine) . I really electrical systems are another place where marketers have convinced folks to buy complexity and capacity that does not actually help the average cruising sailor if the goal is to actually sail. FWIW.
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
FWIW, I ran into a lot of off grid cruiser info that had me thinking upside down on what i should be aiming at. Turns out, as usual, I needed to think about what I want out of the system first, then the methods and budget to get there will mostly have designed themselves.

Since you have a battery bank, I think the first thing is to make sure they're wired for balanced charging, either by connecting at a mid point or using busses (which I think might be impractical on a sailboat). See Victron's docs on how to wire for balanced charging. You'll throw away years of battery life if they aren't charging evenly.

Also, think about how cheap LFP batteries are now, how significantly better value they are over time over FLA/AGM, and how old your current batteries are. If you're going to be replacing w/in a couple years, make choices now that will be money spent towards your future design, rather than wasted propping up the old one. That we can get good quality 230Ah LFP batteries these days for $500 makes for a completely different design universe than even 5 years ago. If there's solar involved (and why not, unless you're always in a marina or are a very spartan sailor), that'll also go in the equation.

And, as Nigel Calder says, what you spend on electrical you'll never recover when you sell, so do it for what you want out of it.

Anyway, your electrical demands are going to dictate the charging system you need. The math is pretty straightforward: the capacity you want on hand and the recovery (charge) rate you need to sustain or replenish it are going to tell you which components you have to get. You'll have all the usual choices between good/cheap/easy/challenging/etc but the 'best' choice for you is going to be a lot narrower than you might think, once you've decided what you want out of it.

Your 440Ah AGM bank is really only a healthy half that (they don't like to get discharged much more than that on a regular basis), and keeping them at full charge, or topping them up all the way every day you run them down, is going to tell you how much charging you have to have. If you rarely use it at all, and the 440Ah is for just in case, and if you do ever run them down you'll be able to take the time to make sure they get topped back off by running the engine immediately after, then slow charging is fine. Or always tying up where there's shore power. OTOH, if you go out regularly, burn up all your capacity, then leave your boat on a mooring ball with limited or no solar to get them topped back up, then you're wasting money on battery life. Another important thing to do is look up your battery's charge rate. Most AGM's have about the same charge rate but not all, so best to be sure. That then will tell you what you have to have and shouldn't exceed.

You may have heard, batteries don't die, they get murdered.

Edit:
AGM usually charge between 10% and 30% of capacity, so usually a 100Ah needs minimum 10A to max 30A charger.

Also, I happen to be in the middle of learning all this stuff myself so please do not think I'm any kind of expert, I'm just an idiot with a lot of current notes to refer to.
 
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Navman

Member III
Wow! Thanks to all for the great information. It has given me food for thought on alternator output /size. I sailed from Worton Creek to Main this year and found my alternator was not up to the task. I did have a Honda generator on board which I would use to top off the batteries each night. I always anchor out or pick up a ball, so not charging at a slip is not an option for me. I will be picking up a new 70 or 80 amp unit this week and will install it next week. I am also going to be installing two, 200 watt solar panels this winter as I am on a mooring ball, and do a fair amount of coastal sailing on The Optimist II. I will let you all know how things turned out this fall as I still have 2 months of sailing left ( I pull out 1st or 2nd week of DeceBerman and launch st week of March. Again, thanks for all the help.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
100 amp hour AGMs seem to be about $200 nowadays. I have three. I chose them because my electrician said "you will enjoy not worrying about fluid levels." He was righter than I expected.

That was eight years ago, and more than 10,000 miles. No noticeable loss of capacity (although there probably is some). They are kept at 100 percent by the shore charger. I never have run them down below 60 percent, and if cruising recharge to 80 percent with a 100 amp Balmar in an hour of diesel time. No solar, or need for it.

Just a report, but new approaches need to be better than old.
 

Pete the Cat

Sustaining Member
100 amp hour AGMs seem to be about $200 nowadays. I have three. I chose them because my electrician said "you will enjoy not worrying about fluid levels." He was righter than I expected.

That was eight years ago, and more than 10,000 miles. No noticeable loss of capacity (although there probably is some). They are kept at 100 percent by the shore charger. I never have run them down below 60 percent, and if cruising recharge to 80 percent with a 100 amp Balmar in an hour of diesel time. No solar, or need for it.

Just a report, but new approaches need to be better than old.
I heartily agree with your last statement. I cannot believe the contortions and complexity folks are going through (not to mention the fire danger) to install large banks of lithium batteries. I am sure there will come a time for them someday when the bugs are worked out in the systems. Right now they look like systems with multiple points of serious failure in boat applications. With solar supplements and LED lights and far more energy efficient everything, the electrical needs on a boat are getting less (OK I have a friend who just took off cruising with about a ton of lithium in his hold and an induction range for cooking--he is an electrical engineer--and I think he is nuts--if he has a problem in Guatamala or the Darien Jungle). I am not sure what folks are doing with all the surplus amps. Some of it must be going to those refrigerator boxes and compressors that the production boat designers buried in a locker next to your engine.
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
I dunno, seems pretty straightforward to me: cheaper, lighter, more reliable, longer lasting... I'm not tossing out my paid for AGM's while they still work but the minute they don't, I'm not spending more money for less return. Maybe you rich folks can afford that but I can't.

To be fair though, I felt like you before I had to start really learning about it and found it's totally mainstream now. Yes, you can make poor choices and/or overspend but that's neither a requirement nor an exclusive club, especially in the yachting world.

The only 'extra' cost is if you have a charger that isn't LFP aware but in total, the whole system is still cheaper because of all the other savings.

Probably the biggest trigger is how people often go a bit crazy when they realize the potential and build it out it in ways not previously considered normal on a boat, especially a sailboat. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Or does it? If you made me go south to cruise in some hot, humid, hurricane hell hole, I'd be seriously looking at AC running off solar. I do not do well in the sun/heat.

FWIW, I was just looking at good 100Ah LFP on Amazon prime deals, $150! 15k charging cycles, nearly twice the useable capacity, a third less weight. I dont understand why anyone would spend new money on old AGM technology for their house bank.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I was just looking at good 100Ah LFP on Amazon prime deals, $150! 15k charging cycles, nearly twice the useable capacity, a third less weight. I dont understand why anyone would spend new money on old AGM technology for their house bank.
I'm skeptical of almost all my Amazon purchases with unusually low prices. If you only get 200, instead of 15k, charging cycles, who are you gonna complain to, let alone request a return or refund from?

I've purchased several "cheap" electrical connectors from Amazon that I either immediately returned or simply threw away due to poor quality.

Several plumbing fittings I've ordered that were advertised as NPT threads were instead metric or BSP threads.

I have very little faith in most of Amazon sellers' claims unless the product is factory-direct from a reputable manufacturer. I'll not likely be buying batteries from AMZN.
 

Vtonian

E38 - Vashon
I was using Amazon for quick pricing on the top LFP value battery from LiTime, recommended by Will Prowse, and also another recommended by Clark of Emily and Clark, who similarly does tear downs, testing and rankings. I agree you have to be skeptical of non-Amazon sellers on Amazon but FWIW, using reasonable precautions, I have very few dollars spent on unsatisfactory purchases and I spend a lot of money on Amazon for my business and due to my location.

Edit:
Also, Prime Days, like Black Friday, coughs up very good deals. I dont scoff at a vendor who needs to clear inventory, buy some customer acquisitions, gain some reputation/recognition, or whatever other capitalist marketing itch they need to rub.
 

Navman

Member III
I carry 440 AH in my Tartan and had a 105 amp alternator with a smart regulator in my international cruising years. The alternator size was overkill for the most part. I now have an 80ah alterntor (I carry a spare) and it works fine--I generally recharge every second day if I am not operating the engine otherwise. I am not in the tropics and I am only out for a week at a time, but I am not sure that makes a difference. My daily use is about 80ah a day for reefer, radios, diesel heater, instruments, etc. . What I learned is that I generally run the motor when operating the windlass and motoring in and out of anchorages so I am not going long times without charging. My battery monitor and external regulator taught me about this. You see, unless you dump 200 Ah of those batteries daily and want to recharge them daily (and even then you are in for a very long engine running with any smart regulator) you will find that smart regulators (particularly if they have heat sensors on the batteries or on the alternator, or both), will start to shut down the alternator's output to save the batteries (it is all about "temperature and the battery acceptance rates" see Nigel Calder for the details) from overheating and the alternator from burning up. Given the heat environment of most installations, any alternator with a smart regulator is going to run a very short amount of time at max amp output--so imho there is little reason to put a bigger than a 105a alternator--even then it is going run full on for only a matter of minute is most installations before the regulator backs it off to save you from a conflagration.. This is just another place where "bigger and more is better" doesn't actually seem to work out in the real world. Maine Sail's article is very good and I think he acknowledges the heat environment issue situation somewhere in the text, but he was always trying to teach folks "how to do" and does not tell you how to cruise. While I found him a bit compulsive on some issues, and disagree on a couple, his site is one of the best "how to" for boats on the internet. My personal view is that I have massive overkill of electrical capacity these days with 440 ah. I intend to scale back because I am carrying a lot of battery weight I don't use. I don't have refrigeration (the energy hog on my Tartan) on my Ericson, I use a portable refrigeration unit for smaller amounts of stuff and tiny energy consumption, and do coastal and overnight stuff and get along quite nicely with just 240 ah of batteries and the old 50A Motorola (I had it rebuilt) that came with it. I have a smart regulator I could install, but wonder if it would only slow down the recharging schedule (it surely "saves" the life of the batteries, but I am not sure I care--they are 5 years old, cheap to replace, and seem fine) . I really electrical systems are another place where marketers have convinced folks to buy complexity and capacity that does not actually help the average cruising sailor if the goal is to actually sail. FWIW.
Pete, thanks for the reply. What 80 amp alternator did you purchase?
 

Pete the Cat

Sustaining Member
Pete, thanks for the reply. What 80 amp alternator did you purchase?
When I repowered with a Yanmar, it came with a Hitachi 80 amp alternator. I had it wired for an external smart regulator (unnecessary with the Sterling regulators). I ordered a backup on line--it was exactly the same Hitachi as was on the new engine but without the label. I think it cost about $70 ten years ago. Although I have had an external smart regulator for 30 years, I really don't think they are necessary for most recreational boats. Just more complication.
I have learned that most of the alternators were once made by Leece Neville (even the BalMar powder coated--highly hyped versions). Bal Mar now makes most of their own. But the "marinized" versions are not really all that different except they may have sealed internal regulators for spark/fire protection in gas engine installations. Much marketing hype in marine alternators. Pulley diameter is important for accurate Tach. FWIW.
 

Navman

Member III
When I repowered with a Yanmar, it came with a Hitachi 80 amp alternator. I had it wired for an external smart regulator (unnecessary with the Sterling regulators). I ordered a backup on line--it was exactly the same Hitachi as was on the new engine but without the label. I think it cost about $70 ten years ago. Although I have had an external smart regulator for 30 years, I really don't think they are necessary for most recreational boats. Just more complication.
I have learned that most of the alternators were once made by Leece Neville (even the BalMar powder coated--highly hyped versions). Bal Mar now makes most of their own. But the "marinized" versions are not really all that different except they may have sealed internal regulators for spark/fire protection in gas engine installations. Much marketing hype in marine alternators. Pulley diameter is important for accurate Tach. FWIW.
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am trying to find an alternator with the quick connect yellow wire. I do not know what the yellow wire is for or if it is even necessary and I am 2hours from the boat, so it is hard to check. Can you enligten me on the wire?
 

Pete the Cat

Sustaining Member
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am trying to find an alternator with the quick connect yellow wire. I do not know what the yellow wire is for or if it is even necessary and I am 2hours from the boat, so it is hard to check. Can you enligten me on the wire?
Yellow wires are generally "sensing" circuits. My guess is that this is your alternator wire on an Ericson. It is probably safe to run without it connected. You will see if the tach works.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
I am trying to find an alternator with the quick connect yellow wire. I do not know what the yellow wire is for or if it is even necessary and I am 2hours from the boat, so it is hard to check. Can you enligten me on the wire?
On the original Ericson installations (Universal diesel with 50A Motorola alternator) the yellow alternator wire was for the "alternator excitation" circuit. It connects to the purple wire from the engine panel and is powered any time the engine panel has power.

As most people know, an alternator is just an electric motor in reverse--you mechanically turn an electro-magnet inside a fixed magnet to generate electricity. In a motor, all the actions starts by applying electricity to the coiled-wire electro-magnet. In a generator the action starts by mechanically spinning the wire coils. But the spinning coils can't become an electro-magnet until a small amount of current is applied to the coil. It's the excitation circuit (yellow wire) that initially energizes the coil to turn it into an electro-magnet. That's how it was done in the 80s anyway. The old style alternators shouldn't work without the excitation circuit. Things may be done differently with modern alternators.

alternator.jpg alternator2.jpg
 
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goldenstate

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
Why do you need 220 effective (50% of rated AGM) amp hours? (Do you have a "power budget"?)

I don't think the alternator brand matters a great deal if it fits your engine and if you are simply relying on a voltage measure to determine how well charged your system is. If you are trying to get from 90% to 100% on your battery charge, the batteries stop absorbing electricity in a non linear way. If you want to convince yourself of this, buy an inexpensive ammeter:


This tool lets you put the circular part around a live wire and it will give you a fairly accurate estimate of how many amps are flowing through that conductor.

Check how many amps are flowing from your alternator when your batteries are very discharged vs. when they are 90% charged. The absorption is not at all linear. This means it doesn't matter if you have a 200amp alternator if your batteries are only willing to accept 15 amps the final charging phase. The 200amps vs. 70amps only matters for a brief period of time.

Solar panels are of course, very good at the final, low amp top-up.

I spent a lot of time designing and installing an externally-regulated, well-monitored system with precise voltage parameters for my lithium battery set up because I was planning a long trip. If I was weekend-warrior day-sailing, I would not spend much time and effort worrying.

 
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