Spinnaker Pole topping lift & mast hardware questions

[klb67pgh]

I've used a whisker pole with my drifter sail without any topping lift and plan to try out my new to me symmetrical spinnaker next season, so I need to add the hardware to operate the spinnaker pole. I'm trying to imagine how the pole will be handled and adjusted flying the spinnaker and gybing it.

Questions:

1) Is there a preferred location to mount a spinnaker pole topping lift block on the mast other than at least higher than the length of the pole when stored on the mast? Is there such a thing as too high (other than adding unnecessary topping lift line length)?

2) I'm going to install a cleat on the mast to cleat the spinnaker pole topping lift. Is there any reason not to use a Harken micro cam cleat with fairlead, probably with a slight wedge? Seems like a better option than a clam cleat.

Nothing on my boat is lead aft and I'm likely to have someone on the foredeck able to adjust the pole height. All halyards are external to the mast so I'm likely to keep this halyard external as well. I'll probably use 6 mm/1/4 in. for the topping lift unless it makes sense to go with 8mm for hand comfort (spin halyard is 8 mm).

3) Is there a need to be able to cleat the topping lift on either side of the mast depending on the boat's tack? Or is just one cleat appropriate/enough?

4) Is there a typical height for the topping lift cleat on a mast (waist? shoulder height? higher?)

5) For a spinnaker pole downhaul, I'm inclined to try a short dyneema bridle attached to each bow deck cleat and some combination of line and bungee cord attached to that bride and a snap shackle on the other end to attach to the pole when in use and to a stanchion base when not in use. Do folks find the need to make regular adjustments to the downhaul? If so, I imagine I'll have to install a block on the deck at the factory spinnaker location and then run lines back to the cockpit per the E25 owner's manual instructions.

Relevant specs are an Ericson 25, masthead rig with a deck stepped mast, Harken roller furler for the genoa and masthead crane for the spinnaker halyard. I have no other mast hardware for a spinnaker pole. I cleat the spinnaker halyard on the starboard mast horn cleat on top of the cleated genoa halyard. I stow the spinnaker halyard on the bow pulpit when not in use.

It would be great to see anyone's spinnaker set up for an E23, 25 or 27 in particular, and especially if lines are not led aft. I'm seeing lines led aft on any larger boats, so those set ups are less helpful to my questions.

Thanks.

Kevin

 

[frick]

Kevin
a down haul on your Spinnaker pole is necessary, as the pole will ride up quickly in any breeze.
your bridle idea will work. I would use a cheap low friction ring in the center point.

in light air and when gibing an up haul is really handy
. I used a car on the track of my masr.

Rick

 

[G Kiba]

Wow. Lots of questions. I have rigged my former E27 for a symmetric spinnaker and my current Olson 911, that I race crewed, single, and double handed. I would recommend that you look over some of the older race boats in your marina as a good starting point. Even better, sail or race with them awhile before you start to add rigging to your boat. You will learn quicker and make less mistakes. You will also find that personal preference and boat model play a big part in how you set your boat up. For example, you will need to consider where you are going to hoist and douse the spin. I think you may find that you need more controls led aft. As a personal preference, my E27 stowed the pole in a sleeve on the boom. On the Olson, its stowed in chocks mounted between stanchions. I prefer a boom sleeve for racing but feel the Olson pole is too long to be handy in a sleeve.

If you are not racing, I would consider an Asymmetric spinnaker. A lot of fun and a lot less gear. I run both but the a-sail just for fun day sails and cursing. That may change some day.

 

[peaman]

for fun day sails and cursing

Yes, they aren't all fun sails.

 

[klb67pgh]

Thanks for the responses so far. I should add I'm on an inland lake and the serious racing is done in Flying Scots, not keelboats here (I have raced my Sunfish and made a few races in one of our club's Flying Scots last season). I don't have many other examples of keelboats with kites. There are a few, and I should have looked at them more closely before the end of the season. A few club members occasionally crew on boats in Erie or elsewhere, so I may pick their brains as well at our next club function in the New Year. Otherwise I need to rely on the great resources here (been through all of the whisker pole and spinnaker pole posts I think) and elsewhere online. There are lots of general resources in the parts you need and overall set up, but I have found little that says to mount the topping lift block at the spreader, or above, or whatever, and the halyard cleat here. I gather its more or less up to the user. But I don't know what I don't know. At a minimum, I at least need to mount the topping lift block on the mast before I raise it in the spring. I can do everything else when the boat is in the water and perhaps in a temporary fashion until I see what I like and what works.

I picked up a good but older spinnaker, a spinnaker pole, and various hardware when I grabbed other items from an E25 that needed to be scrapped. So other than some sheets and possibly a new cam cleat I have everything else I need to rig the boat for a traditional spinnaker. Although I'm tempted to get a good turtle bag to launch the spinnaker from.

Someday I imagine we will invest in a full asym set up with furler.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

Are you sure your mast doesn't have a sheave in place for a pole topping lift? Ours does (though a bigger boat). Are your halyards internal? Would it help looking at how J/24s are rigged? There were so many that there's got to be archives online on how folks have set them up. Or a similar size boat that had a wide distribution?

 

[klb67pgh]

I just have sheeves at the masthead for main and genoa halyard. All are external. I plan to install an eye strap and block on the front of the mast for the topping lift.

I found and watched a good video on a J24 spinnaker rigging and hoist. It was helpful and discussed details on sheet routing, packing the spinnaker, etc. But all lines led aft and most if not all were internal to the mast.

Many resources suggest the T track on the front of the mast to have an adjustable pole and place to store it. I don't have that need for just messing about with a spinnaker.

 

[Christian Williams]

For cruising I want no part of a traditional spinnaker. Too much gear and attention for too little gain and too much drama. Except for dinghy racing I see them as obsolete. Just my take, and I understand you already have much of the gear. But it's not too late.

Asyms are just easier all around, and dead downwind, where a symmetrical shines, is nobody's favorite point of sail.

 

[klb67pgh]

For cruising I want no part of a traditional spinnaker. Too much gear and attention for too little gain and too much drama. Except for dinghy racing I see them as obsolete. Just my take, and I understand you already have much of the gear. But it's not too late.

Asyms are just easier all around, and dead downwind, where a symmetrical shines, is nobody's favorite point of sail.

My boys are 16 and 12 and my oldest in particular enjoys tweaking the sails and will enjoy the foredeck work. When they both are on their own, I suspect they'll come back to visit and find Awela with a new Asym set up on a furler. I still recall coming home from college and going out to plow snow with my dad in the jeep and discovering his brand new power angle plow. My job as a kid was to hop out and pull the pin and switch the plow angle every time he needed that to be done. I had been replaced by a joystick.

 

[Christian Williams]

Of course when I had a 25-footer I installed the biggest spinnaker anybody had ever seen, such that when the pole was against the forestay the boat was immobilized on its side as if beached. I set that spinnaker at night alone on the way to St, Michaels on the Chesapeake, fell asleep at the tiller, and woke up in a thunderstorm going in circles. Took till dawn to get the thing untangled. I always felt that a harbor should always be entered in a cruising boat under spinnaker, so the takedown would have an audience. In Solings, at SSA in annapolis, we would sail under spinnaker right into the tiny dock under the lift, and simultaneous jibe and takedown so as to come to a stop perfectly, and of course observed. The Soling would turn on a dime and stop in its own length, which made tht possible, and also once did toss Harold Brodie, age 16, right off the foredeck as the crowd watched. But my thinking has changed since everyone else became younger, and now I believe in taking the fun out of it.

 

[G Kiba]

Yes, they aren't all fun sails.

I met a fellow club member who was then 81 years old (a serious and successful racer). He skippers on beer can nights several nights a week at different clubs. He told us one night after a race that he "has never had a fun sail" in his most serious voice! One of the crew answered back "well it's not too late!". Roar of laughter from him and the entire crew present.

 

[G Kiba]

A furler on an a-sail on a 25 foot boat in a lake might be overkill. And you don't need to spend a lot of money on rigging to set one up. I have a tack line on the bow (a 4:1 block) with line enough to blow, and two turning blocks at the stern. Still a good challenge to hoist and douse and successful inside and outside gybes take practice. I use the same rigging for the symmetric except for the pole.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

My boys are 16 and 12 and my oldest in particular enjoys tweaking the sails and will enjoy the foredeck work. When they both are on their own, I suspect they'll come back to visit and find Awela with a new Asym set up on a furler. I still recall coming home from college and going out to plow snow with my dad in the jeep and discovering his brand new power angle plow. My job as a kid was to hop out and pull the pin and switch the plow angle every time he needed that to be done. I had been replaced by a joystick.

That's perfect. Do it! When they're 45 they will be able to brag to the sailing youngsters who will have never seen a symmetrical spinnaker in action.

 

[Loren Beach]

Much envy for those sailing on open water venues. They can usually bear off on enough of a reach to max the benefit an A-Sail. Here on our river, the wind generally blows up it, or down... A tri-radial chute is easier to fly on many days. I have used a 'sock' for our old tri-radial, for everyday sailing. And I still use an end-for-end jibe, because we cruise and only fly it on a light air day.

That said, racers really like the A-Sail, because they often can use jibe angles to gain some ground to the up river mark. The big A-Sail may have less "hardware" to handle, but a series of jibes is more labor intensive for a small family (yes, sailing for pleasure!) crew.

Strictly an opinion, but I have always believed that, outside the racing community, most flying sails are bought by newer sailors who seldom or never actually fly them. They see the colorful spinnakers on the race course or in a magazine picture and figure that it's as easy as poling out a jib.
Those big colorful sails are easy to market, and I remember the thrill of helping a customer color in the panels on the order form for a new spinnaker. I did that too!
Old history now, when I was an agent for a while for a Seattle loft back in 1980. The original "Ulmer Flasher" really got new sailors interested/excited.
It kinda gets back to where and how you sail.....

 

[Elgyn]

Strictly an opinion, but I have always believed that, outside the racing community, most flying sails are bought by newer sailors who seldom or never actually fly them. They see the colorful spinnakers on the race course or in a magazine picture and figure that it's as easy as poling out a jib.

I don't think that needs to be an opinion
The first thing out of my dad's mouth when ever looking at a boat is "does it have a spinnaker?" despite never have used one or even knowing how to use one

 

[klb67pgh]

I forgot this photo existed from the factory marketing materials until it popped up from Roscoe's Oystercatcher web page from my google search. It answers the approximate location of the pole halyard block on the mast and routing of the sheets. Roscoe's page goes into detail on the factory spinnaker rig.

I'll have to look at my mast to see of the pole ring on my mast is that high up - I think mine is a bit lower.

 

[Loren Beach]

forgot this photo existed from the factory marketing materials

Hull number 1... Cool!