Foul weather gear (advice wanted)

[N.A.]

My foulies are old (Musto bottoms, 25 y.o.) and leak, or new but old enough (10 y.o. Gill jacket) that it probably makes sense to replace top and bottoms together.

Planned use is singlehanding offshore Northern CA, Puget sound (rain -- I have spent many hrs in heavy rain up there (sailing happily); I do want the stuff to work during extended wear , and probably Hawaii trip at some point. Inside the bay my current foulies are good enough most of the time; if I get wet enough to care I can just go home (or may never have gone out I sail all year, mainly SF bay and environs, but not likely to be offshore in the winter (Oct/Nov - Feb/March out here), at least if its inclement.

Will probably get the 'offshore' style/level gear to avoid liners which would take a long time to dry (from sweat as much as rain/spray). Plus Gill's inshore stuff doesn't have double-sliders on the crotch, which I think is utterly irresponsible given that it's a $1 part. Obvious and irritating effort to force you into their higher-end stuff.

--> Advice would be appreciated -- I am considering Gill/Musto/Helly Hansen. Less excited about newer brands (Zhik) because I keep them so long I'd like a brand that has a long track record. What brands/classes within a brand ("Offshore? Some have multiple levels of 'offshore')/features do you suggest? [Ideally hoping for comment from anyone who's bought in the past ~5 years so familiar with current offerings, and been it it a lot (PNW sailors, or offshore where it's mattered to you.]

Many thanks!

PS: I did consider a drysuit (friend has a kayak and talked them up), but people convinced me not to. Date of this thread indicated how long I'd put up with imperfect foulies, but the time has definitely come now.

Drysuit advice?

Does anyone here have experience with using a drysuit in a (yacht, though dinghy also interesting) sailing context? I'm curious about things like: - If they are too hot, do the Goretex ones solve much of that problem? - If you get neoprene neck seals you can leave open (as in the Mustang...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[MARLAUREN]

On the Bering Sea (Dutch Harbor) we swear by Grundens. If you've ever watched The Deadliest Catch, that's what I mean by "on the Bering Sea"; people literally standing and working for hours at a time, getting pummeled by raging storms on deck or on the docks. For me (and pretty much every fisherman/stevedore I know) it's Grundens.

Common storm setup:

Bottom:
-Smartwool (or equivalent) wool base layer,
-Grundens "sweat pants" (or equivalent) mid layer,
-Grundens outer shell layer/layers

Top:
-Smartwool (or equivalent) wool base layer,
-Wool sweater
-Grundens hoodie (or equivalent)
-Grundens outer shell

Grundens has different outer shell varieties so you can have a packable light rain shell top and bottom, all the way up to a blasting storm shell; depending on where you plan on sailing in the future. They also have bib style bottoms.

Hope this helps.

 

[Slick470]

I've often bought my gear at boat shows to take advantage of the discounts. Did the research beforehand and then found the best deal I could. Current set is Gill that I bought when APS was going out of business and have done a couple east coast offshore legs in them. They also have an outlet store that you can sometimes find good deals on.

I also wouldn't avoid Zhik, at least not from the aspect of it being a 'new' brand. It's been around for a while. (checked and website says founded in 2003). No personal experience, but I see them worn at races a decent amount and it has always seemed like decent gear.

 

[Loren Beach]

I would not recommend West "Third Reef" gear for really harsh conditions, but have done about 30 overnight deliveries with this jacket and chest-high's and a couple of coastal trips up and down the California coast. I seem to get 15 or 20 years out of them before the water proofing starts to flake or fail. If going to HA, I would probably upgrade to something stronger and more appropriate, tho.
Actually my larger concern - up here in the NW - is boots that are warm enough for night watches.

 

[Christian Williams]

I mourn the loss of Line Seven gear, from New Zealand. It was made of white vinyl, with a liner, impervious to moisure (or the relief of heat).

The budget West marine stuff is fine, but as Loren says, waterproofing disappears. Can be quite a surprise after five years to walk the dog and come back soaked. It's hard to toss away a jacket that looks fine, but is dramatically useless.

 

[MARLAUREN]

I would not recommend West "Third Reef" gear for really harsh conditions, but have done about 30 overnight deliveries with this jacket and chest-high's and a couple of coastal trips up and down the California coast. I seem to get 15 or 20 years out of them before the water proofing starts to flake or fail. If going to HA, I would probably upgrade to something stronger and more appropriate, tho.
Actually my larger concern - up here in the NW - is boots that are warm enough for night watches.

From a commercial fisherman's / stevedore's perspective, I recommend a pair of XTRATUFF boots and a thick pair of wool socks. After decades on the Bering Sea, I've not found anything better. You'll need to get a boot dryer or keep a couple of smooth river stones on the stove to put in the boots after use to dry them as condensation will occur inside them if worn for long periods in colder weather. (Hot stones are a great boot dryer).

 

[Jim Picerno]

My 20 year old Henri Lloyd salopette is at the end of life, but held up well when I lived in Northern California. The HL jacket died after too many weekend trips up to Drakes Bay in the rain, and I bought a Gill offshore model. HL is expensive these days, so I'd opt for Gill or Helly Hansen. I gave up on Musto when a pair of sailing shorts I owned literally fell apart while I was wearing them. I opt for the mid-tier or ocean models but as mentioned above look for boat show, or end of season discounts. You can often find the offshore models at the end of the season in some bright yellow or red color but at 50% off who cares. For boots I like DuBarry.

 

[Pete the Cat]

I carry two sets of gear on my boats. One is the Grunden's stuff the lobster guys wear when it is really snotty--it is waterproof but you sweat and I just put what I need under it for warmth (the old Line 7 that Christian mentioned was similar and I wish they were still around). That is my heavy weather stuff. I went through buying all the expensive stuff that "breathes" and found that most of it leaks as well. What I wear most is light Helly Hansen stuff for rain and the occasional dollop and splash because I like to be able to move and do not mind getting a bit wet for the freedom of movement. My problem is that bundling up in the "offshore" designed stuff makes might keep me a bit drier but makes me feel like the Michelin man when I try to move around the boat. I also single hand a lot and need to have a harness over what ever I am wearing and some of the "offshore" stuff seems unnecessarily bulky and overdone. I also try to avoid crappy weather.

 

[MARLAUREN]

I carry two sets of gear on my boats. One is the Grunden's stuff the lobster guys wear when it is really snotty--it is waterproof but you sweat and I just put what I need under it for warmth (the old Line 7 that Christian mentioned was similar and I wish they were still around). That is my heavy weather stuff. I went through buying all the expensive stuff that "breathes" and found that most of it leaks as well. What I wear most is light Helly Hansen stuff for rain and the occasional dollop and splash because I like to be able to move and do not mind getting a bit wet for the freedom of movement. My problem is that bundling up in the "offshore" designed stuff makes might keep me a bit drier but makes me feel like the Michelin man when I try to move around the boat. I also single hand a lot and need to have a harness over what ever I am wearing and some of the "offshore" stuff seems unnecessarily bulky and overdone. I also try to avoid crappy weather.

Grundens makes great lightweight items as well that have taped seams and actually keep you dry. Their rain shell is even packable into a pouch the size of a thermos. As a Bering Sea fisherman/Stevedore myself of many years, mobility on deck is critical, and most of us wear Grundens. Their Weather Watch jacket, bottoms, and bibs, are an example of their lighter weight offerings. Rip-stop fabric, taped seams, ankle and wrist gathers. Oh, and they're quite reasonably priced.

 

[Nick J]

I've only gone through a few pairs, but I've become kind of picky over the experience. Most good quality foul weather gear will keep you dry, but there's a huge difference in fit and freedom of motion.

• 3 layer material - 2 layer with a liner gets caught on the layers below and restricts motion. It also doesn't seem to breathe as well
• Cut - Most foul weather gear I've used or tried on feels like I'm waring a trash bag. they aren't cut to be athletic. We cruise with only minor desire to some day race, so 90% of the time we're sitting in the cockpit. the other 10% is very active and there's usually enough things making sailing difficult, why choose a garment that restricts motion and makes it even more difficult?
• Cuffs - This one drives me nuts. almost all offshore jackets are double cuffed. Great for keeping the water out, but horrible for taking the jacket on and off, checking your watch, or putting gloves on. I think it's important to have double cuffs, but there has to be some thought in making them usable.
• Zipper Flaps - I hate them. they constantly get stuck in the zipper and are a pain in the ass to take off. They do add an extra layer of protection, but I don't think it's worth it. I'd much rather have a waterproof zipper.
• Great pockets - most important is comfortable and easy to access hand pockets, free of obstruction from zippers and your life jacket. Second are large, dry, and easily accessible thigh pockets without hanging off your leg.
• Great collar - I still haven't found one that works. I'd like to find one large enough to fit while wearing extra hoods and a beanie and still be comfortable and not get in the way when it's not fully zipped up.
• Hood - You need to be able to adjust it so it follows your head movement and provides good protection.

I'm sure there's more, but those are the main things I look for. I'm currently using Mustang's Meris jacket and pants. They tick most of the boxes, but still don't have a great collar and the pants only have a single thigh pocket. The cuffs are the best I've found by a mile and the fit is just about perfect.

The Meris Collection

Discover the Meris Collection of lightweight waterproof outerwear. Engineered for comfort, breathability, and nearshore performance.

mustangsurvival.com

(look for on a good clearance and you can usually find it 30-50% 0ff)

For boots, I've tried Gill, West Marine, Xtratuf, and Durbarry before finding Apache Moose Sotrnaway boots. All but the Durbarry were ok, but fell apart quickly. The Durbary were in a class of their own, but didn't fit my high instep and I had to return them. the Apache Moose boot is very similar to Durbarry but about half the cost and has the extra room in the instep I need.

Apache Moose Stornaway Waterproof Leather Sailing Boots - Dale Sailing

Stay comfortable and dry with Apache Moose Stornaway Waterproof Leather Sailing Boots. Durable leather, non-slip sole, and breathable lining for ultimate performance on and off the water.

dale-sailing.co.uk

 

[N.A.]

Thanks, folks!

I had not thought of Mustang, @Nick J , but the detailed list of features is tempting. I will give them a second look... and probably nurse my existing until the end of the season when the sales hit -- thanks also for the reminder of that!

@MARLAUREN , ironically I already own some Grunden's, at the suggestion of... a friend who grew up commercial fishing in AK : ) I had written them off since I sweat in them too much/ condensation is an issue due to their impermeability, but @Pete the Cat 's suggestion to carry Grunden's for when it's really nasty and something OK but cheap-ish for the rest of the time seems like a great idea. And Grunden's is affordable enough for that to make actual sense.

Loren: I had forgotten the bot thing, but have been sorry about cold feet many times, even with two pairs of socks. A friend in Olympia likes XtraTuf, despite the supposed-lower-quility due to offshoring, but they have looked hard to scramble around on deck in. What have you settled on? And @Nick J , do your Apache's really keep your feet warm in the cold night, or are they just (like my Gill ankle-boots) just good for getting around on deck during the day?

 

[Nick J]

The Apaches have insulation and are warmer than the standard West Marine, Gill, and Xtratuf boots I've had. They aren't super insulated which make them nice for shoulder season and occasional use in the summer. The insulating liner also helps them breath, so your feet stay dryer longer. An extra pair of socks and toe warmers could get you through most situations comfortably.

 

[N.A.]

@Nick J -- Thanks again. Doesn't the leather make them take forever to dry? I'm trying to understand why someone would make rain/water boots out of leather.

 

[Nick J]

Yes, they stay wet longer, but it's on the outside of the waterproof membrane. They've had more use in one year than any of my other pairs and they still look new, so I think leather just lasts longer. The tall Gill boots ripped the cuff off in the first 6 months of light use, 2 pairs of Xtratufs split at the sole and started leaking in less than a year, and I don't think the West Marine short cuff lasted more than 2 months before cracking at the flex point in the toe and leaking. I do have a short pair of Xtratuf leather boots that have started to leak, but have held up better than the others and I still use them .

Maybe the higher end Gill or Zhik offshore boots would be a good fit if leather isn't your thing. They look a lot better than the standard boots, but I don't have any experience with them.

 

[Loren Beach]

Loren: I had forgotten the bot thing, but have been sorry about cold feet many times, even with two pairs of socks. A friend in Olympia likes XtraTuf, despite the supposed-lower-quility due to offshoring, but they have looked hard to scramble around on deck in. What have you settled on?

I have found that rubber boots from a local fishing supply store work well, and are under $100. Extra socks, too. Note that I have NOT done offshore racing /sailing where scrambling around a moving deck is required, just sitting in a cold cockpit for 3 hours waiting for my turn to go below and warm up.

 

[MARLAUREN]

Thanks, folks!

I had not thought of Mustang, @Nick J , but the detailed list of features is tempting. I will give them a second look... and probably nurse my existing until the end of the season when the sales hit -- thanks also for the reminder of that!

@MARLAUREN , ironically I already own some Grunden's, at the suggestion of... a friend who grew up commercial fishing in AK : ) I had written them off since I sweat in them too much/ condensation is an issue due to their impermeability, but @Pete the Cat 's suggestion to carry Grunden's for when it's really nasty and something OK but cheap-ish for the rest of the time seems like a great idea. And Grunden's is affordable enough for that to make actual sense.

Loren: I had forgotten the bot thing, but have been sorry about cold feet many times, even with two pairs of socks. A friend in Olympia likes XtraTuf, despite the supposed-lower-quility due to offshoring, but they have looked hard to scramble around on deck in. What have you settled on? And @Nick J , do your Apache's really keep your feet warm in the cold night, or are they just (like my Gill ankle-boots) just good for getting around on deck during the day?

Be sure to keep in mind that Grundens has the heavyweight gear and the lighter-weight tops and bottoms as well. On the fishing boat I wore the thick Grundens. Sailing, I wear the lighter weight "Weather Watch" variety. Funny story: the way I first tested my Grundens "Weather Watch" items is I waited for a blasting 50mph gale in Dutch Harbor and wore them down to the shore. I "beach-combed" for 3 hours wearing them (hood up) with wind and waves blasting onshore directly on me. Kept me bone dry. Have been my go-to lightweight foulies ever since.

 

[driftless]

Regarding boots, Mrs. driftless has the fancy Zhik offshore boots with the drained spray cuffs, etc, and they've worked great for her. They were the only suitable thing for our sail from Newfoundland that we could find in her size. I used muck-style boots - Dryshod - as did the rest of the Pelagic crew. The "arctic soles" made for ice are quite grippy. But remember that's was on a dirty old steel work boat. I don't use them on driftless. I don't know for sure that they'd leave marks, but I don't want to risk it. So far my West Marine short boats have proven sufficient for Lake Superior, and held up fine.

We've got a mix of high end Gill and Helly Hansen foulies. I love them. Wait for a sale though! Especially on the HH. I found those 2 for 1.

 

[southofvictor]

So many good points made. I’ll just add one. Try them on for size. I have two pair of different style HH size large bibs, both purchased online. One pair is a little too snug and the other could fit a second pair of legs in them.

 

[MARLAUREN]

So many good points made. I’ll just add one. Try them on for size. I have two pair of different style HH size large bibs, both purchased online. One pair is a little too snug and the other could fit a second pair of legs in them.

Great advice!

 

[Aqua V]

From a commercial fisherman's / stevedore's perspective, I recommend a pair of XTRATUFF boots and a thick pair of wool socks. After decades on the Bering Sea, I've not found anything better. You'll need to get a boot dryer or keep a couple of smooth river stones on the stove to put in the boots after use to dry them as condensation will occur inside them if worn for long periods in colder weather. (Hot stones are a great boot dryer).

Just received a pair of "XTRATUFF" boots as a birthday gift, the rock idea rocks (sorry...) how long on the stove, can you get your stones to hot ...